Motivation, pressure, and the weight of Olympic medals with Summer Sanders Schlopy

[00:00:00] I say this to young athletes and I say this to established athletes when you have created that foundation that's just unbreakable. Then you can stand out there in the world's toughest, most pressure cooker stage and you've taken away all the chaos. And so that's what I did. So I stood on the blocks I looked at a sign on the right hand side which said Barcelona 1992 with the Olympic rings. I said to myself, this is your last time in this pool at this moment. I dove in and swam the most imperfect race.

[00:00:30] I've never swam the swimmer butterfly like that. I think I gave my parents a heart attack and I will myself and went back to the basics at the end of just get your arms over the water, get your arms over the water and somehow someway I touched the wall first.

[00:00:46] That's Summer Sanders describing her gold medal swim at the Barcelona Olympic Games. She's a decorated swimmer who spent years competing at the highest level of sport followed by a long career in television advocating for and sharing the stories of other Olympic athletes.

[00:01:02] She knows perhaps better than anyone that Olympians are people too. They share some of the same fears, doubts and insecurities as many of us. And Summer shares some powerful stories about how they still perform with those fears even under immense pressure.

[00:01:20] You're listening to the Via Good Wheel podcast, the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel by digging into scientific research and personal stories about human potential and performance. I'm your host Amber Pierce.

[00:01:33] Today we get to pick the brain of Summer Sanders' slo-pee. When I was growing up, Summer Sanders was already a legend in the swimming world.

[00:01:40] A world champion, American record holder, Olympic medalist and NCAA champion for Stanford University, she inspired me to set my sights on earning a swimming scholarship to Stanford.

[00:01:50] One of the things I loved about Summer was how honest and real she seemed and how she was both a really nice person and a top competitor. She helped me see that it was not only possible but perfectly okay to be both.

[00:02:02] At the age of 15 in her breakout performance, she came within a hundredth of a second of making the Olympic team in the 200 meter individual medley.

[00:02:09] A result that fueled her dream to return to the Olympic trials and make the team for the next Olympiad. The next year she won Silver in her first ever international event at the Pan-Pacific Championships.

[00:02:19] She went on the following year to win two gold at Pan-Pacific Championships in the 200 meter and 400 meter individual medley.

[00:02:25] The same year she enrolled at Stanford University where she would go on to win eight NCAA national championship titles and help her team win the 1992 NCAA national championships.

[00:02:36] She won back-to-back NCAA swimmer of the year awards and the Honda Sports Award for swimming and diving, recognizing her as the outstanding female college swimmer of the year's 1991 and 1992.

[00:02:48] Also in 1991 she won gold, silver and bronze at the World Championships in Perth Australia. In the 200 meter butterfly, 200 meter individual medley and 400 meter individual medley respectively.

[00:03:00] At her next Olympic trials in 1992 she became the first woman since Hall of Famer Shirley Bapashov in 1976 to qualify for four individual events in one Olympiad when she qualified for a total of five events including the 400 meter medley relay.

[00:03:15] That year at the Olympic Games in Barcelona, Spain she won four Olympic medals. Gold in the 200 meter butterfly, gold in the 200 meter medley relay, silver in the 200 meter individual medley and bronze in the 400 meter individual medley.

[00:03:31] While still competing summer began working in television becoming a staple presence as a commentator, host, analyst and on-site reporter for Olympic coverage on NBC, CBS Sports and Yahoo Sports.

[00:03:41] She went on to spend eight years co-hosting NBA inside stuff with a mob Rashad and became a sideline reporter for the WNBA as well as a feature correspondent for NBA on NBC.

[00:03:52] Her television career took off as she expanded her range to include regular appearances on MTV, ESPN, Fox Sports and the Food Network.

[00:04:00] She became the first ever woman to host a Nickelodeon game show. It was called Figure It Out and Nickelodeon named her their commissioner for the Nick Gas Channel.

[00:04:08] Fun fact, she also appeared in the movie Jerry McGuire playing herself. She's now married to former Royal Cup skier, Erick Shlopi, with whom she has two children.

[00:04:18] Throughout her career summer has delivered a master class on elite performance and importantly on the longevity of elite performance.

[00:04:26] She takes us into the emotional moments before, during and after her gold medal performance and digs into how her family helped her navigate the ups and downs of sport.

[00:04:34] She's honest and open about the role that exercise plays in her life as she ages, as well as in setting an example for her kids.

[00:04:41] We get to cover a lot of ground with this remarkable human being today and I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

[00:04:47] Well, I am thrilled to introduce somebody who was a huge role model for me as a swimmer growing up in the 90s and she is not only a celebrated Olympian and television personality but she is also a leader who remains an elite.

[00:05:03] She's also a leader at the forefront of really upholding the human part of human performance.

[00:05:10] So please join me in welcoming Olympic gold medalist world champion, multi time NCAA champion and television host reporter analyst correspondent product developer, summer Sanders.

[00:05:22] It is so good to be here.

[00:05:24] I am so impressed with that intro.

[00:05:25] I mean, that's not my life. Did I really do those things?

[00:05:29] And my kids would say and alarm clock and on time like, you know, policeman.

[00:05:36] Yeah. Thank you. It's good to love it.

[00:05:39] Oh, thank you for being here. Yeah.

[00:05:41] For those listening, it's fair to say that most of the people listening here are not Olympians or maybe not even aspiring Olympians and they might be thinking, okay, you know, what am I going to learn from somebody who has just this wildly impressive career that doesn't relate to me.

[00:05:55] And I just want to say to those folks that one of the things I think people forget or don't understand is that the challenges that athletes face in sport are really and truly universal human challenges.

[00:06:10] These are people, they're human beings and they're really striving to explore their own personal and human potential.

[00:06:16] And in a way we are all doing that in our lives regardless of whether you happen to play a sport be an athlete or, you know, aspire to the Olympics.

[00:06:22] So I'm just really excited to talk to you today and dig into how you think about performance, how you think about exploring potential because I think that there's so much that we can all learn from you and learn from your experience.

[00:06:36] So again, thank you for being here today.

[00:06:39] Yeah. Like look what I have you guys welcome kit for US masters swimming.

[00:06:43] Anytime I talk to somebody who say that they, that they were a swimmer and oh but I was never at your level.

[00:06:51] I really truly honestly say this and I mean it like we're all the same level at some point time.

[00:06:56] You know, yeah, I'm going to get out there and I'm going to start swimming but I can't do flip turns anymore because I had an inner ear infection or something.

[00:07:05] And so I get totally like my brain scrambles when I do flip turns.

[00:07:08] So I'm going to be out there doing open turns and for anybody who doesn't know swimming that means I'm not going to flip at the end.

[00:07:14] I'm literally going to touch the wall when I'm doing freestyle and then push off again.

[00:07:18] So yeah, you morph and you and you and you relearn your why and your why kind of changes as you cruise along in your life and I'm 51 now and you know I say to people my I love to swimming as my soul but running as my heart and my six miles that I used to do back then is now four.

[00:07:38] Frankly when I turned 60 it'll probably turn to three or two and might turn to walking every now and then I've become very forgiving of myself and also I appreciate it a lot more.

[00:07:49] I love that I love that yeah and I think another thing that people often forget is even the highest most accomplished athletes like yourself all started from no experience.

[00:07:59] You had to start from zero to get to where you were so you have this amazing experience that took you through all like almost all possible levels of the sport as you worked through to strive toward your Olympic gold.

[00:08:13] Yeah speaking of let me just take a moment and dig into your background a little bit and honestly we could speak for hours about summer's palm air is here.

[00:08:23] It's almost it honestly it defies belief but at 15 you finished third at the Olympic trials in the 200 I am which by the way for other folks listening.

[00:08:33] Summer's events were the butterfly events and the individual medley events which I will fight anybody on this those are two of the hardest disciplines in all of the sport I know that distance

[00:08:44] and swimmers will probably disagree with me but no I will I will hold the top of the board I am is the toughest event I think people have anxiety before they do it for sure.

[00:08:55] Sure and I think some people would say 200 backstroke and 200 freestyle are two of the toughest events and the way I describe that to people is I think most people

[00:09:05] would say the 800 400 or two of the hardest events in track right because they're not really it can't really lag you kind of have to sprint the whole way so that's what makes it slightly difficult more difficult exactly and I think those are the 200s and swimming so go ahead proceed.

[00:09:21] Thank you so much for validating that my assertion here yeah absolutely this is an incredibly difficult event and at 15 you finished third at the Olympic trials and that just means that you missed making the Olympic team at 50.

[00:09:34] I think in the Olympic team at 15 by one place which is just astonishing and I think a lot of people look at that and say oh well you know what it would an overnight phenom like you just had it from the start but another thing about swimming that's important to remember is that by 15 you put in a lot of work and a lot of time you know that

[00:09:52] that result was probably the tip of the iceberg for what you had put into the sport at that point yes and I've had I had a lot of lows so yeah for people just let me say a couple things about your question there number one I got third by 27 100s of a second so I sort of joke about it but it was basically like just

[00:10:13] Lee press on nails on one hand and just like a tiny bit touching the wall like just a millisecond before I did I do a lot of people looked at that moment in my life 15 as a big failure I appreciate failures but it wasn't I was not expecting to even make the finals in that event so the fact that I was standing up there with seven other amazing swimmers and that I was included in that mix was like mind blowing for me.

[00:10:41] So it wasn't a failure it was a huge stepping off point and growth point for me and certainly lit my fire for the next four years so I think that inspired me to what as hard as I did I started swimming when I was four and I started on year round swimming when I was seven so by the time I was 15 I was eight years into it and anybody who knows swimming knows that we over train more than any other sport so my

[00:11:03] longest race was was four minutes and a hat like four and a half minutes four minutes and change and you know our workouts were two and a half hours twice a day so none of it really makes sense they've gotten smarter with their training now but back then it was like I was at the tail end of that idea of

[00:11:21] the more time you put into the pool and the harder your workouts are the faster you're going to be at the end of the season and that's shifted quite a bit so yeah so going back to just missing the Olympic team was probably one of the biggest points in my life

[00:11:36] and one of them the moments I cherish in my journey to winning Olympic gold I wouldn't have written the script any differently.

[00:11:44] I love that point that a lot of people view that as a failure so you know even the way that we're describing it like you just missed the Olympic team I mean the other way of putting that is like you came this close to making the Olympic team at 15 which is unbelievable but to your point it's so easy to look at that as like oh it was you missed out versus holy smokes look how far you got in such a relatively short time.

[00:12:08] You know there's a new term floating around and it's called intelligent failure in sport and I do think that that's something the parents and kids can hold on to so right when we get older and we're doing our fun races you know whether it's half marathon 5k marathon half iron man whatever you're into

[00:12:30] there is really no failure I mean the trying and the and the training is is part of the package and we get that as we're adults but when you're younger and you have an adolescent brain I think that the idea of intelligent failure in sport just makes here.

[00:12:45] I can't stand the word failure because I think it comes with such a negative idea of it but for me it's just such an a normal part of evolution and growth as a human being so.

[00:12:57] The sooner and the quicker that we can look at a setback so to speak or hiccup in your journey and view it as such an asset I mean it's like such a moment where you can choose am I going to learn from this am I going to get better.

[00:13:13] Or am I going to get discouraged and then is it going to kind of be in my fear backpack right maybe I won't try his hard next time because I don't really want to fail.

[00:13:23] Or maybe I won't do that race anymore because now I just really don't like it I just that moment for me was just such a huge moment in figuring out why I do what I do even at 15 right it's like why am I in the pool that many hours every single day oh it's because not only do I want to win.

[00:13:43] I want to make the Olympic team but I want to win a medal and then at some point I really really believed.

[00:13:50] I could absolutely do it because I come this close to making the team.

[00:13:55] I mean that's incredible right because what we wouldn't all give for that level of clarity and conviction

[00:14:03] and what a gift that moment must have been in that sense right because you had this idea that you wanted to do this but to have that confirmed so powerfully must have been unbelievable.

[00:14:14] Yeah and at the time I had no clue I was just you know sophomore in high school like cruising along but there was no question in my mind very soon afterwards the probably and this is going to sound awful but I think people can understand.

[00:14:31] The only reason why I was really bummed about not making that Olympic team is I really wanted all the swag I wanted all those things on my sweatshirt everybody's getting this really cool stuff like deathful bag after deathful bag of really cool swag.

[00:14:46] And that's why I wanted it right that's not a reason to make an Olympic team and frankly that wasn't going to be a motivation or inspiration to do something at the Olympic Games.

[00:14:56] So I knew that in my head I don't know how I had that that wherewithal to understand that that just wasn't enough to be really really devastated by not making the Olympic team instead it was a driver and Amber I had so much to look forward to in my future yeah.

[00:15:15] The Olympics were part of my process but as you had mentioned in my intro I had NCAA titles that I won and for me my next phase was not supposed to be the Olympic Games it was supposed to be a college scholarship and to be able to compete for college for for a university with my 23 other badass women

[00:15:37] and stand up there at NCH championships and swim with your whole heart and a little bit more and I knew I wanted to do that so that was the next stage and that was the next goal that I had.

[00:15:49] And so I saw the whole picture somehow at such a young age.

[00:15:53] That's amazing that's amazing and I really I there's so much of this that I want to dig deeper into so we will come back to a lot of the thoughts that you just mentioned.

[00:16:01] But I do want to get through get through at least cover the highlights or summary of your total career so yeah that lit a fire for you in the very next year you were in your very first international meet which was the Pan Pacific Championships and you want to silver medal again in the 200 I am and this was just behind Lin Li of China who you came back a couple years later at the Pan Pacific Championships and beat her in the 400 meter individual when he medley winning gold and then you also won gold in the 200 meter.

[00:16:31] Butterfly again some of the hardest events in the sport and yeah and then that same year speaking of college scholarship you enrolled at Stanford and your 10 years Stanford you won eight eight NC two a national championships titles.

[00:16:47] You won back to back NC two a swimmer of the year titles you helped the team win the 1992 NC two a national championships and you were the recipient of the Honda Sports Award for swimming and diving which recognized you as the outstanding college

[00:17:01] females swimmer of the year in both 1991 and 1992 amazing amazing yeah it was a fun it was a fun couple of years yeah.

[00:17:11] And we're just getting going here because again in 1991 you went to World Championships in Perth Australia where you won a world championship title in the 200 meter butterfly.

[00:17:20] You want to silver in the 200 meter individual medley and a bronze in the 400 meter individual medley again so tough just astonishing.

[00:17:30] And of course that rolled into the 1992 Olympic trials where you became the first woman since Hall of Fame or Shirley Babishoff to qualify for four individual events in one Olympiad so not only were you carrying this drive into qualifying but qualifying in a record setting way and then at the Olympic Games in 92 in Barcelona.

[00:17:50] You won four Olympic medals gold in the 200 meter butterfly gold in the 400 meter medley relay silver in the 200 meter individual medley and bronze in the 400 meter individual medley.

[00:18:02] So I want to pause for a second because we talked about at 15 that framing of this huge failure of not having made the team.

[00:18:12] And in one of your interviews that I saw with Mel Stewart you had this really powerful story about your perspective on being at the Olympics.

[00:18:20] And being interviewed about your bronze and your silver which by the way were American records am I right.

[00:18:26] Both of them.

[00:18:28] And I want to hear your perspective so tell me about how you were being interviewed at that time what that was like for you.

[00:18:34] And I want to dig into that a little bit because that ties in with this idea of framing a failure which may or may not have been a failure.

[00:18:43] Yeah, I think you know so going into these next Olympic Games which are in 2024 in Paris.

[00:18:50] I do think it would be really nice for the public to sort of understand the perspective back in 1992.

[00:18:56] I as you said was going to be swimming in five events right a relay and four individual events.

[00:19:02] And America is so wonderful and I love being from this country and I love this country so much.

[00:19:08] But we really do at times get our perspective a little wacky in what's possible.

[00:19:13] So because I was swimming in five events they thought okay she has a chance to win five gold medals.

[00:19:19] Well I mean if I was to swim lights out in the best ever and also all of my competitors were to have the worst day ever then maybe.

[00:19:30] So it was talked about so much my name was obviously perfect for the summer games.

[00:19:37] And so when I got up there for my first event and I you know was really in there I'm very close and I touched the wall and got a bronze

[00:19:45] and broke my hero's American record. I felt like the question was just sort of um

[00:19:50] slightly lazy right to put it just really bluntly.

[00:19:54] There could have been other ways to say it everyone was talking about you winning a gold,

[00:19:59] you win a bronze tell me what you're feeling something like that but it really was.

[00:20:04] You just want a bronze you must be so disappointed.

[00:20:07] And I did want to say to the interviewer oh do you want it's chance to ask that again like I

[00:20:16] thought there was empathy that I felt for him because he was a former swimmer and I just felt like

[00:20:21] oh he probably didn't know what else to ask or maybe they were saying it in his IFB so all these people

[00:20:26] have these ear pieces and their producers talking to them and their ear they very well could have just said

[00:20:31] hey ask her if she's disappointed.

[00:20:32] So maybe that's what he did so I sort of felt empathy, sympathy for him being in that position

[00:20:38] and probably being quite nervous but I do look back on it and if I was you know an adult

[00:20:44] and had like the wherewithal and the boldness and the brave feeling that I have now

[00:20:50] I probably would have said to him I think that's a very lazy question no I'm thrilled but I did

[00:20:57] I didn't away I was like no I'm so excited I just broke my hero's American record

[00:21:01] and I found myself in that position of standing up for each medal that I won and by the time

[00:21:07] the silver rolled around and I was again asked you must be so disappointed I think I was disappointed

[00:21:12] at that time in the way I was being asked it and the way my medals were being sort of I felt

[00:21:18] portrayed back to people so going back to the beginning of this answer I would say to

[00:21:24] the viewers in watching these Olympic games to remember that any first of all being at the Olympics

[00:21:31] is so extraordinarily difficult now more than ever to make this US Olympic team specifically

[00:21:38] in swimming and track and field is extraordinary and now to win any medal any color I'm telling you

[00:21:46] I bring my medals around everywhere and people feel the weight of them the weight of a bronze

[00:21:53] medal is exactly the same as the weight of a silver medal which is exactly the same as the weight

[00:22:00] of a gold medal they are all very heavy it's the first thing people say when they hold my medals

[00:22:06] oh my god these are so heavy and I always respond with shouldn't they be because the journey

[00:22:12] is incredible it's worth the weight so that's the story of my medals yeah I love it and

[00:22:21] one of the things that you said in your interview was that the first emotion that you had about

[00:22:26] winning your gold after that constant that you're finding a tsunami of interview questions asking

[00:22:32] you about disappointment disappointment disappointment I mean and especially at that age it's

[00:22:36] only understandable that that would start to shape how you were feeling and that by the time

[00:22:41] you actually won your gold your very first emotion was relief that you wouldn't necessarily be

[00:22:47] disappointing people again and you know yeah talk about about that a little bit yeah yeah no and

[00:22:52] honestly Amber I'm glad you brought that up because it was just recently when I was hanging out with

[00:22:56] some other Olympians and I forget what's important I actually forget who it was but they felt the

[00:23:02] exact same way they felt relief so I don't want like obviously I want people to be to see a holistic

[00:23:11] athlete there when they're watching the games and to remember that they are individuals and their

[00:23:16] human beings but part of the reason why these athletes are in this situation is because they can

[00:23:24] handle it right it is pressure beyond pressure and what's interesting is I remember when Michaela

[00:23:32] Schiffrin in the Beijing Olympics remember when everyone was like why is NBC so focused on her and

[00:23:38] there shouldn't be all this pressure on her and all this but I also was like wait a second two weeks

[00:23:44] previous to that or maybe not even two weeks maybe around two weeks the camera was straight in the

[00:23:49] helmet into the eyes of Josh Allen from the Buffalo Bills who is the quarterback who is also 26

[00:23:56] years old and he didn't get a shot to come back on the field to take his team and do anything with

[00:24:04] the overtime the chiefs one and he was devastated and he was pissed off and he's 26 and now all of

[00:24:12] a sudden we go to the Olympic Games and we see Michaela Schiffrin who's also 26 not achieving what

[00:24:18] she wanted to achieve in that one moment but both of these athletes are so incredibly equal part

[00:24:24] of the reason why they are where they are of course is natural ability and skill and hard work

[00:24:29] but on the mental side it's because they thrive in pressure and they can handle the pressure

[00:24:38] so we need to honor that and we need to respect them in that that's part of the reason why they're

[00:24:44] so amazing but I do think in looking at the holistic athlete it is so incredibly important

[00:24:51] to remember that again back to the medals being there is extraordinary you can feel bad for them

[00:24:58] but also know that they are very strong and they are very capable and they thrive in these

[00:25:04] pressure situations so when I finally won my gold medal and I was 19 years old the first thing

[00:25:10] I felt was oh thank god thank god I'm walking away from these Olympic Games with a gold that was

[00:25:18] the goal all along that's what I wanted to do but I wasn't 26 I was 19 and it was my first Olympics

[00:25:26] and I know so much more now and I think I knew so much more four years later I just didn't get a

[00:25:33] chance I didn't put myself in a position to make the Olympic team and do it all over again but

[00:25:39] I realize now I'm not alone in that initial feeling of crossing the finish line touching the wall

[00:25:45] and realizing you just won gold I just I think I wanted that old school oh my god I just surprised

[00:25:52] myself and won a gold medal this is crazy this is amazing it's a lot different when you're expected

[00:25:58] to win yeah it robs you of that opportunity to just revel in the joy of the culmination of all

[00:26:04] of your efforts because I mean it yeah it sets up and to your point you're prepared for that pressure

[00:26:11] but the the expectations of the public and the reporters who are interviewing you to take a really

[00:26:20] also you know an uninformed lens on it right because an American record in a bronze medal are

[00:26:27] far from failures those are I mean I don't even it just boggles my mind that somebody could

[00:26:34] look at that as a failure because again we're talking about the Olympic Games here folks it's not

[00:26:38] just the USA right every single country is sending athletes who have come up through the ranks

[00:26:44] who are the world's best and they are coming with their A game and they are prepared and they're

[00:26:50] in their peak form and they have done everything that our athletes have done and to your point it's

[00:26:55] like yeah if all of your competitors had their worst day ever it might be a cakewalk but that's the

[00:27:01] whole point of the Olympic Games is that it's not a cakewalk well and remember times were so different

[00:27:06] back then so yeah people got caught up in the narrative and I don't blame them I do the same thing

[00:27:11] if I don't know a sport and somebody's telling me this person has a chance to do this

[00:27:15] I'm gonna hop on that train mostly because I want to wish the best for them I want them to far

[00:27:20] exceed their expectations can you imagine now so going back to these two athletes of Josh Allen by

[00:27:25] the way if you don't know my Buffalo Bills fan huge Joshy J he's my guy I just I've always believed

[00:27:31] in him as a quarterback and I love Michaela Schiffer and she went to the same high school that my

[00:27:36] husband did and my son is at right now so I believe in them wholeheartedly so nowadays these young

[00:27:44] athletes and back then I didn't even have cell phones the internet wasn't really invented I mean

[00:27:48] I think the worldwide web was like just a thing now they have social media they have all of these

[00:27:54] other like inputs of possible negativity or distraction or whatever that's why mental health

[00:28:03] is so important and such an important two words that we need to take seriously to support

[00:28:09] these young brains you know you still have an adolescent brain until you're 25 so that's a ton

[00:28:16] of our Olympic team right there is still an adolescent brain and trying to remind themselves

[00:28:24] of who they are why they do it who really loves them who I should really care about again why I do

[00:28:31] it when they're standing up on the blocks simplify the moment when it's so big and that's difficult

[00:28:36] to do and it's more difficult now for sure than it was in 1992 yeah that actually is a great

[00:28:43] segue into a topic that I wanted to bring up today which is this idea of mental health in sport

[00:28:49] and I'm gonna bring up another quote from another interview you did you said you were talking to

[00:28:54] you were speaking to the friends of people who may have just finished an Olympic competition and

[00:28:59] you said continue to invite Olympians to do normal things tell them don't bring your medal just

[00:29:04] come hang out and to remind them of who they are and why they matter and that it has nothing to do

[00:29:10] with their performance in the Olympic games what keeps their mental health and check comes down

[00:29:15] to who cares about them so and you mentioned the Olympic blues so can you talk to us about what

[00:29:21] the Olympic blues are and how that connects to this advice that you were imparting um I'm gonna

[00:29:26] tell you what my mindset was before my Olympic gold medal moment um I was mentally physically drained

[00:29:34] I honestly didn't even know if I was going to be able to finish my 200 butterfly

[00:29:38] so I knew I had to dig deep and I had to do something different and I was Barcelona was an outdoor

[00:29:43] venue but we had this like inner walkway um a hallway on the inside and I went I went for a little

[00:29:49] walk I don't I mean we had security back then but I don't know where they were

[00:29:53] so I was just walking around this hallway and I found a bathroom all by myself and so I went in

[00:29:59] and there was a mirror and I had a moment with myself and I asked myself why do you swim

[00:30:05] and the answer was very clear because I love it who do you swim for and again the answer was very

[00:30:13] simple I swim for myself that might sound selfish to some people but it's also incredibly

[00:30:21] uncomplicated and it just takes weight off of your shoulders when you're just doing it for yourself

[00:30:27] and then finally who loves you and the people who loved me were there my mom my dad my aunt

[00:30:35] my grandparents weren't there but I knew they loved me no matter what my best girlfriend was in

[00:30:39] the stands some other my college friends I knew that they loved me no matter what I did out there

[00:30:47] and so I I say this to young athletes and I say this to established athletes when you have

[00:30:53] created that foundation that's just unbreakable then you can stand out there in the world's toughest

[00:30:58] most pressure cooker stage and you've taken away all the chaos and so that's what I did so I stood

[00:31:05] on the blocks I looked at a sign on the right hand side which said Barcelona 1992 with the Olympic

[00:31:10] rings I said to myself this is your last time in this pool at this moment I dove in and swam the most

[00:31:17] imperfect race I've never swam a swimmer butterfly like that I think I gave my parents a heart attack

[00:31:23] and I will myself and like went back to the basics at the end of just get your arms over the water

[00:31:29] get your arms over the water and somehow some way I touched the wall first so yes in that moment

[00:31:38] I do think it's incredibly important to always remember who you are why you do it and who loves you

[00:31:46] and that goes back to and I think I wrote that on Instagram after Michaela or maybe it was Simone

[00:31:53] vials of just these intense moments but also the incredible need to be a normal real person

[00:32:02] and know your worth as a human being not just an Olympic athlete at that stage

[00:32:10] I always say to people the greatest gift that my parents gave me was just this sense of

[00:32:17] yeah your swimming matters but it doesn't dictate what our family does so if I went to a

[00:32:22] swimmy and I didn't swim well we went to the pizza party with the team no matter what

[00:32:28] we didn't cut out not go because oh summer's in a pissed off mood she doesn't want to be around

[00:32:32] you know her swim friends no you go to the pizza party anyway so either way we went to the

[00:32:39] pizza party and that always just gave me this sense of oh no one really cares right I'm just the same

[00:32:45] person whether I lose or whether I mean in in the moment like celebrate competitiveness I say that

[00:32:51] to parents also if your kid is pissed off after a race and they want to have a tantrum and they want

[00:32:56] to cry just tell them you know what that's valid but you need to go over there and do it

[00:33:02] and then you need to come back and be a good teammate but go ahead and be pissed for a second

[00:33:07] I'm gonna validate those feelings just don't do it right here and then bring yourself back in

[00:33:12] so yeah all of that is the whole package of you know containing the amazing competitive value

[00:33:19] but also self-worth there's two really powerful things here that I want to dig into one is

[00:33:26] I think people at all levels whether you are a competitive athlete whether you're an elite athlete

[00:33:31] whether you're somebody who's you know getting on a bike or getting in a pool just to exercise

[00:33:37] or for fun or as an escape it's so easy and tempting to start to tie our self identity and self-worth

[00:33:45] with did we nail that workout did I get a good result in that race and instead of separating

[00:33:52] what we're doing the the behavior the action the result from who we are we start to blur those lines

[00:34:00] and we we don't take ourselves to the pizza party yeah I'm missing out on a lot of fun that's

[00:34:06] such a beautiful story and it's you're missing out yeah and by the way we're missing out on

[00:34:12] into this point of being there you got into this sport because it was fun that was your first

[00:34:17] tie to it you didn't know you were gonna be good at whatever sport it was you got into it because

[00:34:21] you were fun I also have a totally different perspective on the whole participation metal I always

[00:34:27] say to parents I have a high school senior and a high school sophomore and I do not think participation

[00:34:34] metals are a problem in our country because beware you take participation metals out of the equation

[00:34:40] and all of a sudden you're crossing the New York City marathon finish line and they're just giving

[00:34:46] you a high five and you don't get a medal and meanwhile we adults are very aware that we have just

[00:34:52] crossed the finish line in 6,526th place nowhere near a podium finish but we will wear that metal home

[00:35:01] on the airplane ride why because we're proud of it so yeah be proud of your season or your moment

[00:35:09] even if you finished last you're still gonna get a medal that's the case at an adult level and

[00:35:17] you do it because it's fun and because the training is powerful and similarly when your kid is five

[00:35:25] and you think that they don't care about soccer because they're doing cartwheels or picking

[00:35:30] dandelions the process is fun and if they've shown it for practice and they've done some of the work

[00:35:37] let them have a participation metal it's it's more I always feel like don't drive your kids

[00:35:43] homework to school when they've forgotten it and you know that they haven't really been present

[00:35:50] in their schoolwork like maybe that's the participation metal that you shouldn't cut off so

[00:35:56] that they feel a little bit of the consequence but that's my two says. Well and I think that we joke about

[00:36:03] the participation metal but it's not just about participation I think that the point that it really

[00:36:07] drives home is the importance and accomplishment in showing up because that is so important and

[00:36:15] so hard to do sometimes especially for younger kids but for all of us sometimes it's

[00:36:21] sometimes the hardest thing is just to get out of bed and show up and if you can not only show

[00:36:26] up to a marathon but you can finish the dang thing then I say yeah where that thing with pride I

[00:36:31] mean I'm speaking to somebody who's like really not a runner because my body doesn't work that way

[00:36:36] and I have the utmost respect for those who do but yeah to me if I ever finished a marathon heck

[00:36:40] yeah I am getting that participation metal and I am taking it with me because it's it's so much more

[00:36:46] than participation it's so much more than that and I love that you brought this up because I think

[00:36:50] it's so important. Yes it's the process it's the journey I remember thinking to myself because

[00:36:55] I've run six marathons and I've loved all of them I my first one was 99 and you're amazing

[00:37:02] and then I kind of run them for my decades so I'm due for one because I'm 51 and I haven't run

[00:37:08] one in my 50s but there was a point in time where we really felt like oh people probably see you know

[00:37:15] marathon runners or maybe triathlon because they take so much training and so much time

[00:37:21] and by the way we're normal adults so we also have jobs and then we're trying to be parents and

[00:37:26] you know all this stuff that they must look at us and think over quite selfish with our time to

[00:37:31] be taking this time to do it and there were two things that I noticed number one my son and my

[00:37:37] daughter really did learn about sweat from me because when I was training for Chicago marathon

[00:37:44] before my 40th birthday I would come home for my runs and they'd be watching something on a

[00:37:48] Saturday morning or Sunday morning or something and I would come in and my son would go what is

[00:37:54] that all over your face mom and he would touch it and he's like oh my god and I was like okay

[00:38:00] that's sweat this is good my heart is working and it's pumping and all my blood is flowing and so

[00:38:05] my temperature is up and I'm sweating and it's my my body's weight regulating my temperature and all

[00:38:10] this and it's really good for your system so later that week you would you know it was out there in

[00:38:15] escape order as razor scuder or something and he had his helmet on and he takes his helmet off and

[00:38:19] he's like mom look I have sweat I have sweat underneath there I'm working my heart and I was like

[00:38:25] yes he learned that from his mama right and then in running the races I like to chat with people

[00:38:32] when I'm running and I distinctly I pick out the people who are running for others running for a

[00:38:39] wife that was lost to cancer running for Alzheimer's running for different things running for purpose

[00:38:48] and I thought to myself oh my gosh those people are the opposite of selfish they're selfless

[00:38:54] they're out here putting their body into the pain cave to to draw awareness to something or someone

[00:39:02] else and that was part of the beauty of that community and and that's another reason why I realized

[00:39:10] oh it's so much more it's so much more

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[00:40:36] more and join us as be a good wheel dot com slash. I think this brings up two really interesting

[00:40:47] points that are related one is this idea that training engaging in a sport whether competitive or

[00:40:55] for health is a selfish endeavor that takes away from your family because I know that a lot of

[00:40:59] folks who are parents who have full-time jobs really struggle with that and then related to that

[00:41:04] is this idea which you illustrated beautifully in the story with your son of

[00:41:08] leading through example as a role model so I want to dig into those two topics well let's tackle

[00:41:14] the first one about feeling selfish because you mentioned prior to your gold medals swim

[00:41:19] you were getting yourself you were getting rid of that chaos and really pairing down to the

[00:41:24] essential and the essential being that use for yourself and I've spoken with a lot of women

[00:41:30] especially women but men too a lot of women who really struggle with taking time away from family

[00:41:36] away from their job to train to engage in exercise or to compete because it feels so selfish

[00:41:44] what would you say to somebody who feels who struggles with that who feels selfish when they're

[00:41:49] taking time to do these things I would say that I validate everything that they're feeling and

[00:41:55] it just means they love their family so much but then I would have them step back for a second

[00:42:01] and recognize the true time that they're away from their family training for something

[00:42:08] and then I would want them to really decide what kind of parenting and what you would actually be

[00:42:15] doing parenting wise in those two hours one hour 45 minutes whatever it is that you're giving

[00:42:22] yourself this gift and it's really probably not a lot maybe you're making snacks or overseeing

[00:42:28] their homework and again those are things that you want to try to encourage your kids to do on

[00:42:35] their own or engage your husband or your partner in assisting because all of it's positive

[00:42:42] and then most importantly if you are training for something and you've made that conscious decision

[00:42:51] you will be a better parent because you've taken this time for yourself

[00:42:56] I don't even know if there's studies but I'm telling you I am a doctor of this

[00:43:02] I have done my own study you will be a better parent you will be happier you will be more present

[00:43:09] you will be more engaged and there is no better way to teach your children as your second point

[00:43:17] is alluding to than by example it is one thing to sit there in your office chair doing your homework

[00:43:24] in front of your computer telling your kids hey you guys need to get outside and you need to go do

[00:43:30] something outside and you need to get rid of energy and while you're sipping on your coffee

[00:43:35] you know saying you need to be drinking water and you should be eating fruits and snacks and whatever

[00:43:41] no if you do it you don't even have to say anything they see you and they're in all of you

[00:43:49] and they want to emulate you these are things that they will strive to be more like

[00:43:55] and that is a value that you can't even put a price tag on so you are being a good parent by taking

[00:44:01] this time for yourself so rework the words in your brain I validate that you're going to feel guilty

[00:44:07] or whatever whatever but your kids are not missing you that much news flash and they're going

[00:44:13] to be okay and they're going to have to start making their own decisions you're leading by example

[00:44:17] and giving them the gift of the better decision to make oh I love that so much and that concept

[00:44:24] of leading by example I mean it absolutely applies to kids my husband I have a two year old now

[00:44:28] and it does not matter what we tell her the only I mean she just she does what we do straight

[00:44:34] yet I mean it's just that's just how it is but it's also something that really translates into

[00:44:40] leadership in the adult world as well leading by example in as as an adult and one of your interviews

[00:44:48] you talked about your relationship with your mom and you went out of your way to clarify that she

[00:44:52] was always very truthful with you in her feedback so positive of course proud of you of course

[00:44:58] but always very truthful in that she wasn't just going to be inauthentically positive regardless

[00:45:03] of what was going on and I'm I'm really curious about what that did for you so dig into that a

[00:45:09] little bit more this idea of authentic feedback well she was very creative so let's just take it

[00:45:14] when I was really young and she was she would have been a great athlete she really would have

[00:45:19] and my aunt as well they were born and raised Nebraska go big red were the first three words she

[00:45:24] wanted all of her kids grandkids to learn so they they loved sport and they knew sport very well

[00:45:30] she just didn't have a chance there was no opportunity for her so she saw me and my talent

[00:45:37] and my natural gift for this sport and many times she bit her tongue so when I would when I would come

[00:45:44] home and I'd be like oh I'm just tired I don't think I don't think I feel good I don't want to go

[00:45:48] to practice she would never tell me you have to go to practice I pay blah blah blah every single

[00:45:55] month I work bingo for this team I put in so many hours you are going to practice

[00:46:00] her response was huh okay well where are you feeling sick all right and do you think you're

[00:46:09] going to feel guilty if you don't go to practice like do you think in an hour you're going to

[00:46:13] think to yourself oh I should have gone to practice so she would ask me these questions

[00:46:18] and in the end I knew what she was doing I would be like oh okay I'm going to go to practice

[00:46:23] but she never got she never pointed her finger she never talked about the money she was spending

[00:46:29] on this sport she never like there was none of this like negative or other reasons why she would

[00:46:35] want me to do this because that's not why she wanted me to do it she wanted me to go to practice

[00:46:39] because she saw how much talent that I had and she also knew it's very addictive if you don't go

[00:46:46] to practice once it's going to be easier to not go to practice the second time and a third time

[00:46:51] and blah blah blah so she got me down that path she was very honest she did not cuddle she did stand

[00:47:00] up for me she's I don't know I'm talking about her as if it's past tense she's still here

[00:47:05] it's just in my my swimming career this is the way she behaved yeah I I was always on time

[00:47:12] I'm still that way I'm kind of crazy with it but there was one time in particular when my coach

[00:47:17] who was new his name was Mike Hastings and I was 10 and he made it clear you do not be late for

[00:47:23] practice it is disrespectful it will not end up well for you I mean safe sport is a little different now

[00:47:30] but he would make us do things if we relate like stand on the side of the pool deck in a streamlined

[00:47:35] position on your tippy toes for five minutes and if you mess up you had to start over again

[00:47:40] so I had my bags packed ready to go my parents divorced when I was seven so my mom was technically

[00:47:46] single parent for six months out of the year and she's like working in Sacramento coming back to

[00:47:51] Roosevelt to get me then to take me back to Faroaks so anybody from Northern California in that

[00:47:57] area knows the distance but it's like 45-50 minutes each way my bags were packed she was late traffic

[00:48:04] whatever she's also working mom so maybe it was her employer we get to practice and I'm late

[00:48:10] and I'm running in there and coach stops me he starts yelling at me and I don't work well

[00:48:17] when people yell at me when I was little now I kind of laugh but yelling at me yelling at me

[00:48:22] and so I cry and I'm in the locker room and my mom walked straight up to him and said don't you

[00:48:29] yell at her for being late she is always ready to go her bags were packed I was late if you want

[00:48:37] to yell at someone you yell at me and that's also a badass moment right I mean my mom stood up

[00:48:46] to the coach and it was truthful and it was real and he never yelled at me again

[00:48:53] that's not coddling that's showing me I can be a badass woman and I can speak my mind

[00:49:01] and really speak it when I know it's the truth and I you know going back to your kids you know

[00:49:09] feed off of you and that's kind of some of the best parenting can I cuss on this podcast

[00:49:15] yes you can okay I have the I have a tracker mouth I have the worst mouth in the whole world

[00:49:21] and my daughter when she was four something fell or she did messed up or something we were in the laundry

[00:49:27] room and she was like and I looked at her and I was like oh my god what did you say and she goes

[00:49:36] and I said why did you say that she's like this really frustrated because this dropped

[00:49:41] and I said that is an accurate use of that word so I didn't get mad at her I simply said

[00:49:50] I just need you to know in these four walls that's okay but if you go to school and you use

[00:49:57] that word you are going to get in trouble you cannot really use it outside of this house but

[00:50:03] you know in those moments you have a choice do I I know she got it for me I taught her that word

[00:50:09] 110 percent so I couldn't get mad at her really accurate use of the word so nice job there yeah

[00:50:17] but yeah so fun no ill intent right no no like just just got it yeah totally

[00:50:24] I love that well I think this is an important component of performance for one and also

[00:50:31] leadership on the other hand is providing feedback and being authentic about providing feedback

[00:50:36] because sometimes it's not easy to deliver you know critical feedback if it's not really positive

[00:50:42] or receive critical feedback was that something that played a role in your success either as an

[00:50:48] athlete or later in television and I will get into more of your television career a little bit but

[00:50:53] let's let's focus on this question for a moment just this idea of authentic feedback what

[00:50:58] yeah how has that played a role for you and what have you learned about it well I think it's vital

[00:51:02] authentic feedback is vital if you want to be outstanding

[00:51:08] and I think it's totally fine if you want to be very good at something but if you want to be

[00:51:15] and I remind myself of this when I want to feel better in my 50s that I was the best in the world

[00:51:23] that's something and if you want to be the best in the world you have to be able to accept authentic

[00:51:31] feedback I think it's one of the most valuable things to be able to hear oftentimes people won't

[00:51:38] give it to you unless you ask for it so then part of you know the courage is to ask and

[00:51:46] you know going back to my mom those were things I could ask my mom I remember her ask I remember

[00:51:51] asking her all the time got you think I'm a little overweight I knew I was over I mean I knew it could

[00:51:56] be leaner so I would ask my mom do you think I could be leaner do you think I look okay and she's

[00:52:01] like I think you could be leaner does not mean if her to say that to me right it's what I do with it

[00:52:07] and if I want to be the best I have to be able to take that yeah it's it's it's not an aesthetic issue

[00:52:13] it's uh it's a it's an integral component of performance at that point because you're already

[00:52:18] competing at the absolute peak of the sport so this isn't a you know do I look at in these jeans

[00:52:24] question this is a you know I need real feedback from somebody who's not going to be worried about

[00:52:29] hurting my feelings who understands that this isn't a you know a vanity question that this is a very

[00:52:35] real performance related question that I'm asking from somebody who knows me really well like

[00:52:40] well and also it is maybe a fit in my jeans I mean it is uh do I feel good about myself right

[00:52:46] I mean sometimes you you know the answer and you put you choose the person you trust the most

[00:52:53] to ask the most uncomfortable question and you know those aren't the best I mean if you're sitting

[00:53:00] there and you have your best girlfriend and you go shopping with her and your best girlfriend

[00:53:05] doesn't tell you those don't like the best on you try on something else like what in the world

[00:53:11] what's going on I'm that way with my daughter we my daughter has a totally different body type

[00:53:16] than me and I had horrible experiences shopping because I had really long legs everything was high

[00:53:22] water on me nothing fit me and my daughter is a little bit different she has some like she's powerful

[00:53:29] she has power in her lower body I will not let her leave a shopping experience without finding

[00:53:34] something that she lights up when she puts on that makes her feel so good and that is not the

[00:53:42] case with all of her friends and she says it's one of the greatest compliments I've gotten from

[00:53:49] my daughter is I tell my friends all the time if you want to feel good about yourself come shopping

[00:53:55] with my mom she'll make you feel good about yourself I'm not going to sugar cut like some things

[00:54:00] don't look good but we're not leaving the shopping experience without finding your thing because

[00:54:05] everyone's different and you're going to look good in something before we leave here and that's

[00:54:10] that gets to the core of it right which is trust because if you're just blowing smoke and sprinkling

[00:54:15] compliments willy nilly that are you know not true not genuine then they lose all meaning and

[00:54:22] then when you do say and sincerely that looks great it's not going to have the same power or

[00:54:28] meaning as when you know your daughter knows that she can really trust that and it's yes every single

[00:54:34] time that you're delivering that feedback you're either building or eroding that trust and that's

[00:54:38] the cornerstone of any relationship right totally that's the most important part of this entire

[00:54:44] equation assume that the person who's asking you already knows the answer and they're testing you

[00:54:51] how honest is this person going to really be with me right so have the guts to have a true

[00:54:57] and this is sport right if you get done with training and you know it was awful and you want to talk

[00:55:06] to your coach and you expect them to say no wasn't that bad you did this well and you did that well

[00:55:13] you need to be able to take you know what that was not your best day it's not your best day

[00:55:17] but I just tell you what learn from not your best day go home think about it for a second then

[00:55:22] flush it down the toilet and come back here and get better but you have to be able to hear

[00:55:28] not great things about yourself to be outstanding right yeah I mean if you come back to your coach

[00:55:34] after every swim and every single swim they're just like great job that was great I mean you're

[00:55:38] just going to stop going to them because what's the point it's it's gonna stop feeling good after

[00:55:42] well number one and number two you're not getting you're not learning anything so number one

[00:55:46] you're eroding trust as that person in a position of authority and number two you are robbing

[00:55:51] that person of an of an opportunity to learn and grow yeah it was I had a point when I was 14 when

[00:55:59] I my mom couldn't say the right thing to me she would you know she would say well that wasn't your

[00:56:04] best race and I'd be like you're awful you're not supportive you're so mean or she would say

[00:56:10] that was actually I thought that was a pretty good race you don't know anything that was horrible

[00:56:14] how could you say that she couldn't say anything right and it was just a bad state you know

[00:56:20] I don't know if you were a jerk an asshole I called myself an asshole when I was 14

[00:56:25] I totally was my mom thought she had completely lost like any relationship with me whatsoever

[00:56:32] and then I found my way back when I was 15 but you're gonna get in trouble as a parent by saying

[00:56:38] the wrong thing but if you can't say that wrong thing to your own kid who's gonna say it

[00:56:45] and maybe it is the coach maybe you want that to be the coach and this is actually a really

[00:56:50] good thing if we have any parents um listening who have kids in sport and I am speaking on behalf

[00:56:58] of my husband who's a three-time Olympian in Alpine skin and me an Olympic gold medalist in the

[00:57:03] sport of swimming you have got to stay in your lane a parent is a parent and a coach is a coach

[00:57:13] when you see that's you know your kid is sad and not themselves and then a parent can step in

[00:57:21] and say to the coach hey there's something going on here and we need to talk about it I don't

[00:57:25] know if there's something going on at practice or the way you're delivering your message to her

[00:57:30] or something like that but let's just take a look at her mental well-being here totally that's

[00:57:34] a parent moment to step in and talk about the weight here she is coaching but when you have

[00:57:39] these parents that think they know more than the coach 99% of the time Eric and I know more than

[00:57:45] the coach but we're not the coaches and I've never been a coach and I don't want to be the coach

[00:57:50] I want to be the parent so let the coach do that thing right let the coach have his or her lane

[00:57:59] and be that support system on the sideline so yeah vital vital and I always have that my mom stepped

[00:58:07] in that one time and said don't you dare yell at her and she didn't then come up to Mike and say

[00:58:14] I think she should be swimming this and I think you need to work on this with her and I think

[00:58:17] she should know and my dad on the other side walked up to my coach and said hey I'm going to take

[00:58:23] summer on vacation in January you have these two weeks to choose from which week is better for you

[00:58:29] and he said uh my coach said oh my god she can't go on vacation no no no no she like that's our hardest

[00:58:36] training session no she can't and my dad said I think you misunderstood me I'm her parent

[00:58:41] I'm taking her on vacation but I'm giving you the choice of the week and so he was like I don't

[00:58:46] even like this is ridiculous I went on vacation and I had the best season of my life to the point

[00:58:53] that my coach Mike went up to my dad the next year and said hey when are you taking summer on vacation

[00:58:58] again because he knew it was so good so like there is a parent moment that trumped the coach right

[00:59:05] but they never overstepped and I think that that's really important for parents to remember

[00:59:10] there are several ways to coach they might be different than the way you do if your kid asks an

[00:59:16] opinion on you know what do you think about my recovery or how does my start look or my turns

[00:59:21] or in ski racing for my son like dad I'm having trouble with this if he asks you yeah give

[00:59:27] your opinion but if they don't you know stay in your lane and be that the support system or

[00:59:34] the accountability checker or whatever it is that you are as a parent yeah I love that your

[00:59:39] your parents really stepped in for you as a person so they're there to parent you as the person

[00:59:44] and who you are and your coach's job is there to develop the athlete and those are the the

[00:59:49] really clear roles that I love that when are you taking a summer on vacation again yeah you're

[00:59:56] you're dad knew you he knew you as a person and he understood that this was a holistic part of what

[01:00:01] was going to help you as a person and an athlete I want to just quickly jump back to a joking comment

[01:00:07] that you made about being a jerk when you were 14 because I'm so excited to have you here because

[01:00:12] I actually really want to personally thank you for something when I was growing up as a swimmer

[01:00:17] one of the things that I really looked up to you for was how you were this wicked fierce

[01:00:24] competitor but you were also so incredibly kind and just an obviously good person

[01:00:32] and for some reason as a young athlete I really struggled with this because I feel it I'm a

[01:00:37] competitive person I have this really deep internal competitive drive and I couldn't deny

[01:00:41] that part of myself but at the same time there's a lot of social pressure especially at that time

[01:00:46] for girls especially around that age to be likable and being competitive and being likable didn't

[01:00:53] always seem to jive and I struggled with that so much and it wasn't until later in my swimming

[01:00:58] career that I was really able to like wrap my head around the concept and articulate what that was

[01:01:03] and and reconcile that for myself but one of the things that you did again leading by example

[01:01:09] was you just did that you just did you just competed with every bone in your body with no mercy

[01:01:17] with pure ferocity and you didn't feel like you had to be any different than who you were

[01:01:23] just a genuinely genuinely nice good kind person and when I saw that in you as a young kid growing

[01:01:32] up it made me feel like that was possible for me too that I didn't have to conform to some personality

[01:01:38] type in order to be competitive or that I didn't have to deny my competitive nature to be

[01:01:43] likable or be a nice person and since you're here I just want to say thank you for that because

[01:01:49] that is the sweetest it's the best compliment I really really appreciate it and I'm glad I could

[01:01:55] be that person for you and you know I think we continue to hold on to those people in our lives

[01:02:02] because it doesn't get any easier as a woman when you get into you know a competitive business

[01:02:10] scenario I do remind people that there's room at the top for several women and if you can help

[01:02:17] pull them up the ladder the space on top is amazing and it's better with more women there

[01:02:23] so you know because you've made it to the top doesn't mean there's not any space for more women

[01:02:28] at the top always be that person that's helping pull people up I've always felt that way and never

[01:02:34] felt like and again it just goes back to why I swam and who I swam for I swam because I love it and

[01:02:40] I swim for myself and I'm not swimming to take other people down that wasn't my competitive fire

[01:02:46] right I get it that some sports are inherently like my daughter plays rugby and she has to compete

[01:02:52] and get physical with another team to beat them we were lucky we didn't have to do that we stood

[01:02:58] in our lane and we had to choose to enter the pain cave and at times feel like we were going to die

[01:03:04] and not make it to end of the lane in the finish that's a choice that we made but it didn't affect

[01:03:10] anybody else so I never looked at my race and stood on the blocks and wished everyone else a

[01:03:16] horrible race so that I could win I only just focused on how much I loved to win I really loved

[01:03:24] that feeling and I wanted it I also just didn't recognize that if I won other people didn't but

[01:03:30] that was the scenario and so I would have empathy afterwards when I would see for example at the

[01:03:37] gnarly event called the Olympic trials when you have the extreme of both emotions right the person

[01:03:43] who makes the team and then the person who gets third and I did have teammates who got third

[01:03:49] and I fully recognized and felt a weight knowing that because I got second or first meant they didn't

[01:03:56] make the team and you know I felt that and there's nothing you can say to your competitor who is also

[01:04:04] your teammate in that moment but to your point I don't think that you have to be fierce and cut

[01:04:10] throat to be great I do think you can be kind and be incredibly competitive 100% and I think

[01:04:19] when later in my cycling career I finally connected the dots on it at least for myself and it was

[01:04:24] this revelation that as hard as I can push myself in training I can never push myself as hard

[01:04:30] as I can when I have a competitor next to me so that competitor is actually the key to me being

[01:04:37] able to discover my own potential I need her in order for me to find my best performance without

[01:04:45] her I'm not going to have that extra drive that extra motivation to dig as deep as I need to dig

[01:04:52] so in that sense she's my greatest ally in striving for excellence and exploring my own potential

[01:04:57] and I am that for her too so when I show up and I'm competitive I'm helping her learn what she

[01:05:05] needs to learn what she needs to know to go back and train and come back again a better athlete

[01:05:12] and get closer and closer to that greatness that she's striving for and so you know going back

[01:05:17] to this idea of failure all of those disappointing performances I say that in air quotes at the

[01:05:24] Olympic trials for so many people that might have lit the fire that it lit for you at 15

[01:05:29] and it's not necessarily a zero-sum game right because they learn from it and it's going to

[01:05:34] it's going to affect them in a deep way that's meaningful that may actually unlock the key to

[01:05:41] their calling or the next big accomplishment I have to mention something really quickly because

[01:05:47] what you just said showing up for your teammates the very real thing even on your worst day and

[01:05:52] this is why showing up every single day and always showing up unless you're you know

[01:05:57] giant fever and in the hospital whatever but you show up and you authentically show up not just

[01:06:02] for yourself but that's why competing for Stanford and winning that NCAA championship in 1992

[01:06:08] was my greatest accomplishment my Olympic moment as I said was like few I love my Olympic medals

[01:06:14] I love the whole seven days of my competition and all the swimming that I did and the journey that I

[01:06:18] had and how imperfect and awesome and you know self-building it was but my goodness for three days

[01:06:27] competing with those bad-ass to the core women to try to beat the University of Texas

[01:06:35] and win the national championship because we had lost it the year before by a very narrow margin

[01:06:41] to actually pull that off was the most together together as a family was the most exceptional moment

[01:06:50] of my athletic career you just you can't put value on that experience that's why I mean

[01:06:57] I love collegiate sport to its core like the NCAA model is the building block for all Olympic sports

[01:07:04] please do not mess with it please do not take it away keep all of these sports funded and somehow

[01:07:11] give these athletes an opportunity to really really be great because if that model isn't there

[01:07:17] these moments are lost and these moments build incredible human beings it's more than just the sport

[01:07:24] it's CEOs that are women it's entrepreneurs that are women it's politicians that are women

[01:07:32] game changers that are women we need that more and more and more and if that model goes away

[01:07:36] that's why that moment was so important to me I hold on to it like as close as I can to my heart

[01:07:41] I love that and just stepping back for a moment bigger picture given how incredibly wildly successful

[01:07:48] your athletic career was that that was a highlight is it says so much and it's interesting because swimming

[01:07:54] is generally viewed as being an individual sport and yes we have the relays but it's easy to forget

[01:08:00] that there are these moments of team that are so powerful and you actually had another quote

[01:08:06] in a different interview where you were talking about one of your greatest treasures is a photograph

[01:08:12] of your family and friends reacting to your goal at the Olympic Games so again you won gold at

[01:08:16] the Olympics and yet you're talking about you know this peak experience at the NCAA championships

[01:08:20] with their teammates I just love that but this quote was about this treasured photograph of

[01:08:25] your friends and family reacting to your gold and you described it as being right up there

[01:08:29] with the medal itself and the moment you saw you'd won you just wanted to jump in the pool and

[01:08:33] the stands with them those are two experiences that you're talking about that were peak experiences

[01:08:37] in your athletic career and they all involved other people the peak experience for you wasn't just

[01:08:43] about your accomplishment what was meaningful about it was your connection with other people so

[01:08:48] it's it's not just an individual triumph yeah it's the journey includes village and as I told you

[01:08:56] like how involved my parents were in me as a human being not not so much me as a swimmer but I

[01:09:02] knew my mom didn't have to tell me that it was tough for her to pay for my swimming I knew it

[01:09:08] for months and months I had a mattress on a floor she couldn't afford the box spring to like

[01:09:14] lift my mattress off the floor she was mortified by that I loved it because I just dive straight

[01:09:19] into my bed and didn't have to dive up to get in I thought it was really cool but when I saw the

[01:09:25] truck delivering my box spring you know six months later I was pretty stoked to have a box spring

[01:09:30] to lift my bed up off the floor I knew that it was tough for her to pay for my swimming but she

[01:09:36] never held that over my head so the journey I knew everyone was included in this journey my brother

[01:09:41] I knew my brother gave up time with his parents because we were all went to my swim meet you know

[01:09:47] my brother swam but then he decided to do other things quite early in his life and he was still like

[01:09:53] going to summer swimmates we were all a part of this so I do it is one of my I wish I had it here

[01:09:59] it's in a different part of my house but I always say thank goodness that photographer had the

[01:10:03] wear with all to literally take his camera and do a full 180 and turn the other way from me touching

[01:10:11] the wall to get my parents and that moment and the joy and the collective triumph of a moment

[01:10:20] and how relieved they were for me because they knew the pressure that I was under and they were

[01:10:26] part of it it wasn't in this weird parents living through me kind of thing at all no and I wanted

[01:10:32] to look up this first thing I wanted to do was like can you scoop me up and take me home and

[01:10:36] we just have dinner and watch a movie at home I just wanted to be the normal summer that like existed

[01:10:41] you know 364 of the other days a year so I just wanted to be very real with them and it was

[01:10:47] it was great that somebody captured that moment and their emotions is just beautiful oh I love that

[01:10:53] and I think you're so bright it's not just about you know they're not like living vicariously

[01:10:57] through you but so many people join athletes on these journeys it's it's the family it's the

[01:11:01] friends who are sharing in your triumphs and your challenges and your setbacks and they are cheering

[01:11:07] you on but they're also a part of your growth and a part of that path and I promise that we would

[01:11:11] get into your TV career here a little bit and I just I'm gonna dig into that but and relate it back

[01:11:16] to this topic because I think it's really interesting because you actually started working in television while

[01:11:20] you were still competing in 1992 and you got going as a commentator host an analyst for CBS and NBC

[01:11:27] and you've went on to build like an entire I mean spending many many decades at this point

[01:11:37] as a commentator host analyst onsite reporter you've been on for CBS Sports NBC Yahoo Sports

[01:11:43] you've done Olympic coverage for the summer and the winter games you've been a game show host

[01:11:49] you were how many eight years you co-hosted NBA inside stuff with a mod rashad so you

[01:11:55] you have born witness to a lot of athletes journeys a lot of their peak experiences and

[01:12:05] it's so it's not just speaking from your own experience right but you've seen this

[01:12:10] happen over and over and over again with countless athletes in these peak moments

[01:12:15] and seeing the fans be a part of their journeys and celebrate in those moments not vicariously

[01:12:22] but with genuine sharing in the triumph do you see that as a consistent theme across the different

[01:12:28] athletes that you've worked with and observed over the years I think more and more I would say that my

[01:12:34] generation of athlete was pretty rad because we were raised by these people who specifically the

[01:12:41] women who didn't have title 9 who didn't have the opportunity to pursue their greatness in sport

[01:12:49] and then frankly didn't have that like direct opportunity for higher education without

[01:12:56] you know having to pay for it I always say to people don't don't discard title 9 first full title

[01:13:01] 9 is so much more than sport which I hope people take a second and actually read what title 9 is

[01:13:06] but before title 9 5% of law school and medical school were women now 51 years later over half

[01:13:13] of law school and medical school are women we're just better as a society when we have women charging

[01:13:21] you know we know what women can do like we're pretty extraordinary but now they're in positions to

[01:13:27] show people um and people listen to to women so much more now than they did so I guess my point is

[01:13:34] is like I think what you're saying is like like my I do think my generation we saw everything

[01:13:43] we were grateful for everything we knew it was a lot of people working behind the scenes to allow us

[01:13:51] to fulfill our dreams wasn't easy to heat a pool in northern California no people think that

[01:13:57] California is so warm and all that kind of stuff but it's not in the wintertime and we have no indoor

[01:14:02] pools these pools have to get heated so I mean I was switching pools left and right to find a pool

[01:14:10] that was working so many pools would break and that took the entire city helping us out to find a pool

[01:14:17] I think I think that there are some athletes that totally get it and see it

[01:14:22] I feel that my responsibility now as an older athlete is to remind this next generation

[01:14:28] to continue to be grateful to continue to fight for the space that we have and that they were

[01:14:35] so accustomed to that it isn't guaranteed and it might not always be there for the next generation

[01:14:41] and what a shame that would be because I know that this generation right now can't imagine it

[01:14:47] can't imagine it yeah now you can make money in college and play your sport like you can have a

[01:14:52] career at the same time back then I it wasn't that I turned pro I gave up my eligibility do you

[01:15:00] see how that sounds different I didn't turn and gain something I gave up something it was a very

[01:15:07] very huge decision it was my first big girl decision I had to pull up my big girl pants

[01:15:12] my dad who I was talking to my dad about he's like I can't make this decision for you I mean

[01:15:17] I was 19 and I had to decide and I love Stanford University I love that school so much and the

[01:15:24] people and my teammates and my friends and my community but that was a really difficult decision

[01:15:31] to have to make and now kids don't have to make that decision so now imagine the next generation

[01:15:37] will only know that NIL existed oh they won't be able to imagine a time when athletes weren't like

[01:15:44] able to make a living outside so those are the narratives that we have to continue to tell so

[01:15:49] that they understand the progression and that you've got to hold tight to it and keep moving forward

[01:15:54] and pushing forward and being a voice absolutely and we touched on how involved you've been with

[01:16:00] athletes over the years so through all of your work cover in the Olympics but you also had

[01:16:04] your own show in 2009 the Inside Out with Summer Sanders and this was the very first original

[01:16:09] production by Universal Sports and so you've really dug deep with a lot of of these athletes

[01:16:17] and one of your quotes and I this wasn't from your show this was from a different interview

[01:16:21] that you did but you were talking about Missy Franklin and you said he's three girls she's very smart

[01:16:26] but she also gets it sometimes people who are extremely smart think too much when they're

[01:16:30] they're doing it so you've interviewed and worked with a lot of athletes what does it mean to you

[01:16:35] for an athlete to get it oh what does it mean to me to get it I think it sort of goes back to

[01:16:44] accountability when an athlete gets it they see the whole picture they recognize their privilege

[01:16:51] but they also see the need for a voice or a fight elsewhere to stand up for others they don't take

[01:16:59] for granted a moment when they're on top right when they're swimming well or doing well

[01:17:06] they lift others up with them I think it is this this it's it's literally seeing

[01:17:12] it's opening your eyes and seeing the world you know I had a chance to the USOC before it turned

[01:17:20] to US OPC and then but the USOC way back hired me to talk to teams about what it means to be an Olympian

[01:17:29] and you know everything from how to how to celebrate with the American flag right you put the stars

[01:17:35] in stripes in one hand and the the stri- sorry the stars in one hand and the stripes in the other

[01:17:40] and then when you hold it up it looks right don't drape it over you it's not a piece of clothing

[01:17:44] and all this kind of stuff but in that experience I had the opportunity to speak to USA basketball

[01:17:52] and here I am looking out at a sea of millionaires right and they're not getting paid to play for

[01:17:59] this team so what are they playing for and I remember in this moment really looking at a few of them

[01:18:05] and thinking they get it so what they got were the words that were coming out of my mouth

[01:18:12] it literally it they absorbed them wholeheartedly so I said take this time and go and watch the other sports

[01:18:21] because you're going to be watching some people who are a family at home and they're working two

[01:18:28] jobs to fulfill this dream that they have been working towards if not just for the last four

[01:18:36] years wholeheartedly their entire lives so take that in and recognize that they have literally

[01:18:46] given their blood sweat and tears to this moment in time and it's not about money for them

[01:18:51] there's no money in it right it's the beauty of the moment and the podium and the flag

[01:18:58] and the medal and as I said before all those people who played a part and that weight of that

[01:19:04] journey like that's why the medal should weigh so much and a few of those players like literally

[01:19:09] absorbed that moment and that entire team that year went to every single sport they could get into

[01:19:17] to watch their teammates their teammates other USA Olympians compete they soaked up every single

[01:19:25] moment and I've spoken to him since and it's it by far is one of the greatest moments of their

[01:19:31] sporting career really taking it in you inspire them to show up for their teammates well it was just

[01:19:37] they're probably going to do it right but then when they did it they saw these individuals and who

[01:19:43] they were right and how incredibly different but also very similar I mean I think that a lot of

[01:19:51] these NBA players if you said to them hey listen we can only pay you you know the bare minimum like

[01:19:59] what the average American makes let's just say the the very lowest $20,000 year okay that's what

[01:20:05] we can pay you but you're gonna win a world championship I mean I think that everyone the goal is to

[01:20:10] win that world championship right to be the best at one point in your life so it's never really

[01:20:19] I mean it is about money and that does make you feel like okay I can take care of people and all

[01:20:24] that but at the core of it is this Olympic value of that moment in time and yeah really nice metal

[01:20:36] well I think you make a really important point there which is that even if the athletes are

[01:20:41] making money in order to succeed and make it to this level you can't be in it just for the money

[01:20:46] it has to be about something so much more than that right exactly and that's a common

[01:20:52] denominator that's a common theme from an Olympian to a professional athlete yeah well I just have

[01:20:59] two more questions for you one you've been such a leader in the space for supporting athletes

[01:21:07] bringing public attention to it bringing public attention to Olympic sport with a really powerful

[01:21:13] perspective again of looking at the whole human being behind the athlete that put all of this time

[01:21:18] and has this why in this inspiration to get there what is something that you have learned about

[01:21:22] leadership over the course of your whole career not just as an athlete that maybe marks an evolution

[01:21:28] in your thinking about being a leader I think to be a good leader you have to be an exceptional

[01:21:33] listener I have found that not exceptional leaders don't spend enough time listening my dad always

[01:21:40] said God gave you two ears and one mouth so that you didn't twice as much listening as speaking

[01:21:47] um and I do you think it's a really good lesson to live by I know there've been a lot of studies

[01:21:52] lately about how when you just are quiet more quiet it does send this message of not only listening

[01:22:00] but this respect of leadership being a good leader right respecting everyone else and what they're

[01:22:06] saying so yes I think you have to be a very good listener and by listening and equally hearing

[01:22:12] I think you earn respect with the people that you're leading I also think to be a very good

[01:22:19] leader you have to be incredibly vulnerable I work with this company called Team Arottery and I

[01:22:26] lead these experiences with executives in business and the title of it is what if we all war speedos

[01:22:34] to work and right so I think leaders managers CEOs like the headhunches need to get more comfortable

[01:22:45] openly being imperfect accepting this idea of taking risks and being brave and being bold and

[01:22:53] thinking differently knowing that it might not 100% work out the first time but making mistakes

[01:23:00] and being faulty is totally normal and that doesn't make you a bad employee in fact it bonds us right so

[01:23:09] when you have a leader who's vulnerable enough to say those things and to be that person you're creating

[01:23:16] a culture and a true base of where you can grow as a group and that point of growth is incredibly

[01:23:25] valuable I don't know another way to get to that peeling away of layers and that point of growth

[01:23:31] and that we're all in this together and none of us are perfect but let's go work hard and have fun

[01:23:36] doing it right as opposed to I do everything great and everyone should listen to me and not speak and

[01:23:43] I mean that's not a leader so yeah leadership to me is it's really frankly not rocket science

[01:23:50] it's a lot of listening it's a lot of listening it's a ton of decision making and obviously

[01:23:56] we've learned you know great appointing of people below them but a vulnerability that

[01:24:04] seeps out into everyone else around you oh I love that it's so powerful and it's so I think

[01:24:09] so needed in so many spaces my last question for you is to ask you about your new position with

[01:24:14] the USOPF United States Olympic and Paralympic Foundation talk to us about what you're doing with them

[01:24:19] this is a position that I'm so excited about I was a part of help creating this position

[01:24:26] essentially I love the Olympic rings so much I mean in 1984 when the Olympic Games were an LA

[01:24:34] my dad was from LA so he had it on his calendar to take us to the 84 games he was Mr USA loved

[01:24:41] the Olympic rings I mean I was 11 I was pretty good at swimming but he didn't see me as like

[01:24:47] the potential to be the Olympian he just wanted to go to the Olympics at that time I wasn't loving

[01:24:52] swimming so I quit we go to the Olympic Games in LA we drive down there in our Mazda 626 we we

[01:24:59] got every ticket we could get our hands on and I fell in love with the Olympic Games and I called

[01:25:05] my friend on the way back at a pay phone and I said I'm going back to swimming that's it and that spark

[01:25:11] a dream to be an Olympian and those are the feelings that I think a lot of us my generation and

[01:25:19] maybe one generation below have we have that Olympian right in that moment and then with that it's

[01:25:26] like who was I with when I was watching that moment and then it becomes this like amazing emotional

[01:25:32] memory in your life of that Olympic moment I think I got worried that the younger kids right now

[01:25:39] are steering away from having that moment and I just wish it for everyone I want everyone to be

[01:25:46] inspired by the beauty of the Olympic Games it doesn't have to be an American athlete it's the beauty

[01:25:51] of the last place finisher in the marathon and everybody waiting for him or her and cheering this

[01:25:57] person on because that's Olympism and so my role with the US O.P.F which is the foundation of the

[01:26:04] Olympic movement is to remind people that we are one of the only countries one of the only

[01:26:11] Olympic federations that is not funded by our government we don't want to be funded by our

[01:26:17] government I think that would make it very complicated but we are funded by private citizens

[01:26:22] and private companies that believe in our mission and want to be a part of that podium moment

[01:26:29] and they truly are so many people don't know this I think the US O.P.F appreciates I know this

[01:26:37] appreciates every dollar from a five dollar donation to the giant donations that are funding

[01:26:43] mental health movements that are funding technology but the great thing for people to realize is

[01:26:50] the US O.P.F and the US O.P.C so there's the US O.P.C which is the Olympic Committee

[01:26:55] and then there's the foundation which helps fund all of the sports some sports have their own

[01:27:00] fundraising but they all need funding from the foundation and when money is coming from the

[01:27:06] foundation we have an in-house auditor and they audit every single dollar that's spent so it all

[01:27:13] goes to the athlete in some way shape or form whether it's actual sports training whether it's

[01:27:21] the technology behind everything that they're using from speed suits to training facilities

[01:27:27] and new ways to train mental health the travel all of it everything that encompasses how these

[01:27:35] athletes can get better and achieve their dreams so yeah I get to tell that story over and over

[01:27:42] again to people and it's I love it I love the rings so very much and I believe in the Olympic movement

[01:27:49] I love this so to be clear individuals can contribute to the foundation and help support these

[01:27:54] athletes is that right yes so the foundation didn't exist until 2012 and so before that you would

[01:28:00] just donate to the US O.P.C or you know several years ago it was the US O.C so yeah they would just

[01:28:07] donate directly to them but now there's more accountability for the dollars where they going

[01:28:12] what's happening who gets what that's why the foundation was created in 2012 and I like it because

[01:28:19] I just can stand here and say oh like you should feel good it's all go into the athletes it's all

[01:28:24] earmarked and they have to you know answer for every dollar which I think is really really important

[01:28:31] yeah yeah no that's great so what we'll make sure to do for those folks listening if you're

[01:28:35] interested in supporting this foundation which is obviously an incredibly worthy cause

[01:28:39] we will make sure that we have a website and some information on where you can go to donate

[01:28:43] and support the foundation and support these amazing Olympic athletes in the future of our

[01:28:48] Olympic teams here in the USA so yeah with that I say Amber oh thank you so much Summer

[01:28:54] on a personal note I'm just so thrilled to be able to talk to you and meet you in person

[01:28:59] and thank you for all that you've done for me personally for sport and it's just been a joy

[01:29:04] to talk with you today thank you for taking the time my pleasure you are wonderful thank you so much

[01:29:11] I can't thank Summer enough for joining us on the show I love how she is so clear and the importance

[01:29:16] of remaining true to who you are as a person it can be difficult to keep that bearing in the sea

[01:29:20] of comparison and questionable advice that we call the internet she's living proof that it's

[01:29:25] possible thank you for joining us for today's episode if you loved today's show remember to subscribe

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