Camaraderie, Resilience, and Taking the Path Less Traveled with Stephen Hyde

[00:00:00] So I think for me and my brain and the way it's kind of worked over time is getting really

[00:00:08] stuck and kind of trapped in what was going to make me successful.

[00:00:13] This thing is going to make me successful.

[00:00:14] I do this thing is going to make me successful.

[00:00:16] This person around me, this thing.

[00:00:18] And then finding the limits of that and going like, okay, that was all my eggs in that

[00:00:22] one basket.

[00:00:23] Right?

[00:00:24] The value in being, you know, mentored is having somebody or multiple people who can help you

[00:00:31] dial in your process and help you kind of dial in those things that are helpful to you and

[00:00:35] help filter out the things that aren't helpful to you.

[00:00:37] And that includes pressure and that includes the support from an individual of like, okay,

[00:00:42] you need me to push you right now and you need me not to.

[00:00:44] That's three-time cyclocross national champion Stephen Hyde reflecting on the role mentorship

[00:00:49] has played in his life as an athlete.

[00:00:51] His unconventional path led him to the top of many podiums over the course of his career

[00:00:55] and he now imparts his hard-earned wisdom to the athletes he coaches.

[00:00:59] In our conversation, Stephen shares his best advice for anyone still racing, why there's

[00:01:03] an inside of tape Stephen and an outside of tape Stephen, and why it's important

[00:01:08] and more effective to lead with your heart.

[00:01:13] You're listening to the Be a Good Wheel podcast, the show where we explore what

[00:01:16] it means to be a good wheel by digging into scientific research and personal stories

[00:01:21] about human potential and performance.

[00:01:23] I'm your host, Amber Pierce.

[00:01:29] Today we get to hear from the remarkable Stephen Hyde, whose story is as inspiring

[00:01:33] as it is unconventional.

[00:01:35] Stephen's journey in cycling has been BMX, mountain biking, road racing,

[00:01:38] and of course, the gritty technical terrain of cyclocross.

[00:01:42] What sets Stephen apart is not just his athletic prowess, but the unique path he carved.

[00:01:48] Stephen entered the sport later than most pros and despite defying more traditional

[00:01:52] paths, he nonetheless achieved results most of us only dream about.

[00:01:56] Growing up, Hyde was a fixture on the BMX tracks in his hometown of Pensacola,

[00:02:00] Florida, spending endless hours riding until dusk.

[00:02:04] While his talent took him to races across the country, his focus remained

[00:02:07] primarily on the fun of it.

[00:02:10] That connection he found on the bike would take many forms over the years,

[00:02:14] from working as a bike mechanic to racing mountain bikes to riding across

[00:02:18] the country.

[00:02:19] He eventually got into the cycling disciplines of cyclocross and road,

[00:02:22] and it was clear he had real talent.

[00:02:25] Recognizing his potential, friends and mentors connected him with a Jam Fund

[00:02:29] team where he quickly earned over spot on the roster.

[00:02:32] The Jam Fund is a holistic program established to help athletes cultivate

[00:02:36] their potential and reach the pro ranks the team and coaches offered

[00:02:39] Stephen the support he needed to take his talent to the next level.

[00:02:43] He would go on to build an outstanding career racing professionally on the road

[00:02:47] as well as becoming a legend in his own right in cyclocross.

[00:02:51] In cyclocross, he won three national championship titles,

[00:02:54] two Pan American championships and competed in four world championships.

[00:02:59] But his story is as filled with setbacks as it is with life changing results.

[00:03:03] He has battled serious illness and multiple injuries and has been open

[00:03:07] about his struggles with depression and mental health.

[00:03:09] Through it all, Stephen embraced the support of his community,

[00:03:12] learning how to prioritize mental well-being amidst the rigors of

[00:03:15] competition and how to work toward balance in his own process.

[00:03:20] Stephen's story is also a testament to the transformative power of mentorship

[00:03:24] guided by mentors and becoming a mentor himself.

[00:03:27] Stephen has found belonging and community in cycling.

[00:03:30] He now pays that forward as a coach and we get to hear from him

[00:03:33] about what he's learned from those relationships

[00:03:36] and how he now applies those lessons.

[00:03:39] Join us as we explore the storied career of Stephen Hyde,

[00:03:43] a testament to resilience, camaraderie and taking the path less traveled.

[00:03:47] Both Stephen and I were battling colds when we spoke,

[00:03:49] but we had a great conversation.

[00:03:51] I hope you enjoyed as much as we did.

[00:03:53] Today, I am so excited to welcome to the show,

[00:03:57] let's see three time cyclocross national champion,

[00:04:00] two time Pan American champion, Stephen Hyde.

[00:04:04] Stephen, welcome to the show.

[00:04:05] Hey, good to be here.

[00:04:07] Thanks for having me.

[00:04:09] One of the phrases that's often been used to describe you is that

[00:04:15] you came out of nowhere, so to speak.

[00:04:19] But when I read about your history and I read your interviews,

[00:04:23] you were involved with cycling and bikes for a really long time

[00:04:27] before you actually got into racing.

[00:04:30] Would you agree with that statement that you came out of nowhere?

[00:04:33] I still don't think I'm anywhere.

[00:04:36] I think the right is wrong.

[00:04:42] Yeah, I don't know where I came from or where I'm going for that matter.

[00:04:45] Yeah, I mean, bikes have always been a really big part of my life,

[00:04:49] you know, whether I've had a trajectory in them or not,

[00:04:53] you know, in terms of racing is unclear to me, but I've always been

[00:04:59] in the presence of bikes and just kind of they've always kind of led

[00:05:02] me to where I wanted to go from, you know, from a kid to now.

[00:05:07] You know, still I'm still following them.

[00:05:09] So we're using them as a tool to kind of carve out my life.

[00:05:14] And so that way, I don't know, it's just always been a bike.

[00:05:16] They've always just been a tool to carve out the direction I wanted to go

[00:05:21] in or that maybe the directions that opened up and then I followed them.

[00:05:26] Whether I wanted to go there or not, I don't know.

[00:05:28] Yeah, I think the I think the thing about with me and bike racing

[00:05:31] is that I just I found it like, you know, it's

[00:05:36] it's not wasn't something that when I was young, I was like, how would it be a bike

[00:05:39] racer, you know, or or necessarily have the pathway to do that?

[00:05:44] So I think when the door opened up, I just kind of stepped in it and,

[00:05:47] you know, at the amateur level, stepped in and out of it.

[00:05:50] And then when it opened up in the professional level, it was just

[00:05:53] kind of a right time, right place.

[00:05:54] So I think for people in like the northeast or for people in the

[00:05:58] professional scene, especially like the cross, sure, I didn't have a big run

[00:06:02] into it in terms of like, you know, I never got to race any of the USGPs.

[00:06:08] I wasn't on like a youth development program or anything.

[00:06:11] I mean, racing cross when I was like 20, 23 or 24 or something like that.

[00:06:20] So yeah, I guess I didn't have a traditional run in.

[00:06:23] So maybe maybe maybe that's where it comes from.

[00:06:25] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:26] So for our audience who's less familiar with cycling, on the men's side of the

[00:06:31] sport in particular, there are a lot of youth development programs,

[00:06:34] especially through our National Federation USA cycling where they might identify,

[00:06:39] you know, I know when I was first getting started in the sport,

[00:06:42] there were things like talent identification camps and there are

[00:06:46] you 23 development programs.

[00:06:48] And so coming into the sport at age 24 is relatively late, given that

[00:06:55] other people who maybe come up through the quote unquote system

[00:06:58] are coming to the sport a little bit earlier and through a more structured path.

[00:07:03] And you didn't take that path.

[00:07:04] You were involved in bikes for a long time and you started out in BMX.

[00:07:08] Am I right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:10] I started out in BMX.

[00:07:12] I mean, I grew up on a way back. Yeah.

[00:07:14] Go away back.

[00:07:15] You know, I grew up on a pretty small town.

[00:07:17] And so, you know, I think even from as a little kid, you know,

[00:07:20] just bikes, I was on them all day long, you know,

[00:07:24] definitely the probably never I was probably never the best at it,

[00:07:27] but I was always like the last one on the bike at the end of the day.

[00:07:33] And it just happened to kind of follow along with my friend's circle

[00:07:37] in terms of who was doing BMX and I kind of came to naturally do that.

[00:07:41] So was that what first drew you to it that your friends were doing BMX?

[00:07:45] Yeah, I think so.

[00:07:46] Like I had a bunch of older brothers and stuff and they kind of there

[00:07:48] was a few that were into it and they had some friends.

[00:07:50] So I was cool.

[00:07:52] And I think I was always into exploring the limits of whatever I was doing.

[00:07:56] So BMX was a really interesting way to take bikes and explore the limits

[00:08:01] of it or, you know, of myself with it.

[00:08:03] And I just I think that's kind of my like spirit anyways,

[00:08:08] if you will. Yeah.

[00:08:10] So yeah, it was an easy thing for me to just kind of take

[00:08:13] use up a bunch of energy and also find my limitations and push myself

[00:08:17] to do that, not just kind of naturally.

[00:08:19] Yeah. And eventually you went from BMX to mountain bike, road and cycle cross.

[00:08:27] But that was also not a traditional nor linear path.

[00:08:30] Right? It was you were renting, you were bike touring.

[00:08:36] Yeah. Yeah. All over the place really.

[00:08:38] I mean, I just you know, I got a job at a bike shop when I was in high school

[00:08:41] and I kept dropping out of high school and just kind of we lived in,

[00:08:46] you know, other people's cars and the back of my truck and traveled around

[00:08:50] riding BMX all over the country and then, you know, street park and stuff like that.

[00:08:55] And when I started working at a bike shop, kind of opened up

[00:08:58] all these other different avenues, you know, I got my first mountain bike

[00:09:02] was out of a dumpster that I learned to like build.

[00:09:07] It was kind of my teaching tool.

[00:09:09] And so I got that up and running and I use it actually for a year.

[00:09:14] It was great. A little 26 inch Gary Fisher, Tossahara,

[00:09:17] literally out of a U-Haul dumpster that we had by the bike shop.

[00:09:23] And brilliant.

[00:09:24] I was like, I've been fixed years around.

[00:09:26] I was smoking cigarettes and going to punk shows and, you know,

[00:09:31] the whole thing was the pet of me of hell.

[00:09:34] But I think at that point I had like maybe even given up my my vehicle,

[00:09:38] my truck and started just using bikes as a

[00:09:42] commuting tool and then, you know, through the bike shops, I was

[00:09:47] in order to learn something, I need to do it.

[00:09:49] And I think kind of quite naturally, I figured out that I also need

[00:09:53] to teach it a little bit for me to learn it.

[00:09:56] I think it's just kind of always been in me to want to kind of

[00:09:59] externalize how I learned a little bit.

[00:10:03] And so it was pretty natural for me to

[00:10:07] being in the punk scene in Pensacola and like how DIY

[00:10:11] and community interactive it was to just go like, oh, I here's the thing that I have.

[00:10:17] You know, here's my talent.

[00:10:18] You know, I can share that with you guys.

[00:10:20] You know, you share music and you share art and, you know,

[00:10:24] here's our books, you know, thoughts.

[00:10:27] And here's my I can help with this.

[00:10:29] Everybody has a bike here, so I can help you fix it.

[00:10:33] And that was kind of an empowering thing for me to be a bigger part of the community

[00:10:39] rather than just being a bike rider, just being this or that.

[00:10:42] It was a kind of a gift for me to be able to give and connect with other people.

[00:10:47] It was really fun.

[00:10:48] And so through that, just, you know, found mountain bikes and started riding

[00:10:52] them with the local club and found the trails.

[00:10:54] And then, you know, eventually somebody came in and was like, hey,

[00:10:58] should come ride with the road club.

[00:11:00] You know, I started riding on my fix gear and it was great.

[00:11:03] And then they were like, hey, you should come to the come to the road races with us.

[00:11:06] And then, you know, eventually it was like Saturday jumping in the car

[00:11:10] with whoever was going to the road race and then Sunday jumping in the car

[00:11:14] whoever was going to the mountain bike race and then coming back to the

[00:11:17] bike shop on Monday, you know, so just kind of found its way into my

[00:11:20] like life cycle and I just just so hooked.

[00:11:24] I had all this energy that I needed to get out like this just perpetual energy

[00:11:28] and bike racing was the high intensity portion of it that I think I really needed.

[00:11:32] You know, you needed that outlet.

[00:11:34] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:35] And being like a younger brother, you know, the youngest in the neighborhood

[00:11:39] and all this stuff, I've always just been so competitive and like such a pain

[00:11:42] to everybody that it just transferred really nice to bike racing.

[00:11:47] Well, like, yeah, I'm going to annoy everybody here with my endless

[00:11:51] amounts of energy.

[00:11:51] Congratulations.

[00:11:54] But it's also like this arena where that's exactly what

[00:11:57] you're meant to do, right?

[00:11:59] So it's this place where you can fully express that aspect of yourself

[00:12:03] in a way that is completely not only socially acceptable but utterly expected,

[00:12:08] right? Like that's what you're there to do.

[00:12:10] Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:12:11] And so I think that kind of like, you know, anything emboldened my passion

[00:12:16] for it and, you know, somebody was just like, Hey, the thing that you do

[00:12:21] that kind of drives people nuts a little bit and yourself, that's a little

[00:12:24] bit is actually a really good trait for this.

[00:12:27] You know, this is this is a great outlet for that.

[00:12:30] And actually it's a little bit of your superpower, you know?

[00:12:33] And so, yeah, it was a really natural progression for me to go to bike racing.

[00:12:37] And once I kind of get that proverbial bit in my teeth, it's I just

[00:12:42] I've never been able to pull up from it.

[00:12:44] And I still can't, you know, it's still really difficult for me to like,

[00:12:47] you know, I'm retired and I still can't like think about bikes in a relatively

[00:12:50] healthy way.

[00:12:54] Oh, man. I feel that.

[00:12:56] So I want to come back to the retirement piece for sure.

[00:12:59] I think that's a really rich area to mind.

[00:13:01] But before we do that, I want to touch on a couple of points that you made

[00:13:04] that I think are really interesting because you talk about coming to this

[00:13:08] from community and having having something of genuine value

[00:13:12] to offer to the community and something of value to offer that is just

[00:13:16] well, two things, right?

[00:13:17] That you can you have things that you can teach.

[00:13:19] And then also when you come to the races, it's this opportunity

[00:13:22] to express your purest, most authentic self in an area where, yeah,

[00:13:27] that's what we do when we race.

[00:13:29] Would you say that that cycling was a place where you really found belonging

[00:13:33] in your life? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:35] It really is. I mean, it gave me a community.

[00:13:37] You know, I think people saw me and respected me and respected the things

[00:13:42] that I had to bring to the table.

[00:13:43] And it was an area where I could be challenged to work hard.

[00:13:47] You know, I think, you know, I'm a pretty dexterous person, you know,

[00:13:50] I think I pick up on things that need kind of thoughtfulness and finesse,

[00:13:54] dexterity to do them.

[00:13:55] And you know, music has been one of them where like I need to use my body a little

[00:13:59] bit, right? And so I however have always reached a point with things where,

[00:14:05] OK, this is a little bit too hard.

[00:14:06] You know, now I'm getting I'm getting beyond the threshold of my natural

[00:14:09] ability and, you know, for a lot of things, I wasn't able to push beyond that.

[00:14:13] You know, whether it was I didn't have the tools to do it or I didn't have

[00:14:16] the support to do it or I ignored the tools and the support.

[00:14:21] I'm blaming anyone else for myself, but I think by increasing happened to be

[00:14:27] I think the culmination of all these different stimulus that I needed.

[00:14:32] And it just so happened that I think when when I came out of nowhere,

[00:14:38] you know, air quotes, it really was the point in time where I met

[00:14:43] the right group of people who both believed in what I did,

[00:14:48] but also held me accountable to my goals and aspirations.

[00:14:53] And really just kind of pushed me to say like, hey, yes, you have a talent for this.

[00:14:58] Don't let it go. If this is something you want to do, work hard at it.

[00:15:03] You know, let me help you lay out a foundation and a future

[00:15:07] and help you stay accountable to it.

[00:15:10] And I also think that same group was able to kind of through that process,

[00:15:15] like help me also harness those other things that I really love to do.

[00:15:17] You know, teaching, you know, my first Stankley Cross team that I was on,

[00:15:20] you know, the Jam Fund, I was also the mechanic for them,

[00:15:23] with all the wheels and how people had to glue the wheels and, you know,

[00:15:25] with help from everyone else.

[00:15:26] And we kind of went through the process of like, I'd help people build up

[00:15:29] their own bikes and we'd maintain them during the week.

[00:15:32] And, you know, I was able to kind of both learn my craft

[00:15:36] and help other people learn their craft by proxy,

[00:15:40] and their experimentation.

[00:15:42] And the same agency I was getting, you know, I was able to kind of help with too.

[00:15:48] So mentorship all of a sudden became this really crucial tool

[00:15:51] to keep me accountable in the sport that I wanted to be in.

[00:15:54] It was really cool.

[00:15:55] You know, that was just a really neat time in my life.

[00:15:58] Yeah. So was that what you're referring to?

[00:16:00] Is that when you kind of fell in with Jam Fund?

[00:16:02] Is that the community, the group of people that really?

[00:16:05] Yeah. Yeah, really was Jam Fund.

[00:16:07] I mean, Aldonahue, Powers.

[00:16:09] I mean, that's where I met some of my, you know, really good friends

[00:16:12] that I still am just very lucky to have.

[00:16:14] Ellen Oval came through that.

[00:16:17] So, you know, we're still really close.

[00:16:19] And I mean, just a myriad of awesome people

[00:16:23] who went in different directions, you know, whether it was like,

[00:16:26] became stepping on the World Championship podiums

[00:16:29] or like are going into outer space now.

[00:16:31] Christina Burch, she was one of my teammates

[00:16:33] and she's a math astronaut now.

[00:16:35] And like, oh my gosh.

[00:16:37] Right? It's like it's so wild.

[00:16:40] And even, you know, some kids that that were really, really talented

[00:16:43] and didn't quite make it as far as they could have

[00:16:46] are still made it really big impacts on my life.

[00:16:49] And I think through that program also continued to make impacts on other people.

[00:16:53] Yeah. And that program still going, you know,

[00:16:55] and I'm lucky to be right down the road from it

[00:16:56] and have at least been the earshot of it.

[00:16:58] Yeah. So you've mentioned a few times

[00:17:01] the aspect of teaching and I want to get into that in a minute.

[00:17:03] But also sometimes it's not easy to be mentored

[00:17:08] and or to open yourself up to somebody who is stepping forward to say,

[00:17:12] hey, I really believe in you and I want to help you

[00:17:14] and being open to accepting that help and support.

[00:17:17] Was that something that you struggled with or did it come easily?

[00:17:20] Or what was that like for you?

[00:17:22] Still struggle with it.

[00:17:25] You still struggle with it?

[00:17:26] Yeah, yeah, still struggle with it, for sure.

[00:17:28] I mean, you know, I think being on the hot seat

[00:17:31] is can be really difficult.

[00:17:33] You know, some people thrive on it and some people flounder in it

[00:17:36] and some people kind of like run the gamut back and forth.

[00:17:39] I think working with other people has given

[00:17:43] helped give me an understanding of kind of the gives and takes of that,

[00:17:48] like how people react when they're pushed beyond what they're capable of dealing with,

[00:17:52] you know, how they react when they're not pushed.

[00:17:55] I draw from my own experiences of like, OK, so when did I withdraw?

[00:17:58] When did I feel like I had too much on my plate?

[00:18:01] Not too much support, but too much obligation, pressure.

[00:18:06] So I think the struggle for me always was finding a balance of pressure

[00:18:10] and support and breaking down the kind of macros of what that support

[00:18:15] looked like from time to time, like it doesn't always look the same, right?

[00:18:18] Right. Having a coach that supports you and believes in you is really helpful.

[00:18:23] Sometimes that's the key to success.

[00:18:25] And sometimes, you know, it's just a small part of it.

[00:18:28] Sometimes it's your support network in terms of, you know,

[00:18:31] your team or your equipment or whatever it may be.

[00:18:33] So I think for me and my brain and the way it's kind of worked over time

[00:18:39] is getting really stuck and kind of trapped in what

[00:18:44] was going to make me successful.

[00:18:46] This thing is going to make me successful.

[00:18:48] I do this thing is going to make me successful.

[00:18:49] This person around me at this thing

[00:18:51] and then finding the limits of that and going like, OK, that was all my eggs

[00:18:55] in that one basket. Right?

[00:18:56] So I think the value in being, you know,

[00:19:00] mentored is having somebody or multiple people who can help you

[00:19:05] dial in your process and help you kind of dial in those things that are helpful

[00:19:08] to you and help filter out the things that aren't helpful to you.

[00:19:11] And that includes pressure and that includes the support from an individual

[00:19:14] of like, OK, you need me to push you right now or you need me not to.

[00:19:17] Yeah. It's a learning relationship to always.

[00:19:20] And so you learn that with your mentors and you learn that with your mentees.

[00:19:23] And I think it's a bit of an outlet for me to be able to kind of mentor other people.

[00:19:30] It takes a little bit of pressure off of me in a way where like,

[00:19:33] I can take some of that tension and expectation on me and not

[00:19:38] not pass it to someone else, but help them deal with it.

[00:19:41] And in that way, it's a little therapeutic for me.

[00:19:45] Yeah. Whether that's a good or a bad thing.

[00:19:48] Right? Like, I think that it runs the game

[00:19:49] a little bit in terms of that could be bad in the way where, OK,

[00:19:53] so if I'm ramping up in my anxieties, then I'm ramping up my need to do that

[00:19:57] to someone else and they might not be there at the time.

[00:19:59] You know, thinking about a teammate or something like that

[00:20:03] where I'm just kind of vomiting advice to them and they're just like,

[00:20:07] I don't need this.

[00:20:11] But wait, I need I need I need some therapy right now.

[00:20:14] So I need to be able to tell you what to do.

[00:20:17] Yeah, I can relate to that.

[00:20:19] I think when I when I first started racing

[00:20:23] and I was I could still call myself a rookie, I'll say.

[00:20:26] I think I had this idea in my head that everybody who was really good

[00:20:30] at the sport was also just like really good on their own

[00:20:34] and that somehow I should be able to do this myself

[00:20:37] and I should be self sufficient and I shouldn't

[00:20:40] need that kind of support from people.

[00:20:43] And it wasn't really until I was in a position to be a mentor

[00:20:46] that I realized what a joy it is to mentor and how much I actually

[00:20:51] learned and felt fulfilled in that role and how as a mentee,

[00:20:56] as somebody being mentored, you actually give that gift

[00:20:59] to the person mentoring you like you give somebody the opportunity

[00:21:03] to have that outlet to help them process and learn even what

[00:21:07] they're going through themselves.

[00:21:09] And I think it wasn't until I was in a position to be a mentor

[00:21:13] and see the value in that role that I was able to,

[00:21:18] I don't know, feel less guilty about accepting or seeking support from people.

[00:21:21] That makes total sense.

[00:21:22] I have a question for you. Yes.

[00:21:24] When you started your kind of mentorship journey,

[00:21:29] did it help you in your process of failing your own failing?

[00:21:34] 100 percent. Yes. Yeah.

[00:21:36] Big time because when I would see somebody that I was mentoring,

[00:21:41] struggling or failing to meet a goal or whatever we want to call that failure,

[00:21:45] that setback from the outside looking in,

[00:21:48] it was so easy as the mentor to see the bigger picture and to know that,

[00:21:54] oh, this is just a setback.

[00:21:55] And let's let's see what we can learn from this.

[00:21:58] And all of a sudden I'm going,

[00:22:01] this is not what I say to myself in my head when I fail.

[00:22:05] It's wild how that, you know, just, just how much of a mirror it can be.

[00:22:13] You know? Yes. That's exactly it.

[00:22:15] It reflects back to you so clearly and powerfully.

[00:22:19] You can't escape it.

[00:22:21] You can't deny it.

[00:22:22] That is true. That is so true.

[00:22:25] Yeah. Yeah. Good.

[00:22:27] Because I think it's a wonderful experience that I coach now, I mean, full time.

[00:22:30] And again, it's just kind of this natural progression for me.

[00:22:33] And part of what I really like about it is I coach a few athletes

[00:22:38] that also have athletes of their own.

[00:22:41] And it's so much fun to me to listen to them and to listen to how they interact,

[00:22:48] you know, how they coach.

[00:22:50] I like working as a collaboration as much as anything.

[00:22:53] You know, it's OK, cool.

[00:22:54] I'm going to learn as much from you as I hope that you learn from me.

[00:22:57] And, you know, I've met other coaches and seen this scenario play out

[00:23:01] where, OK, I won't coach you if you coach other people.

[00:23:03] You know, you're not going to take my trade secrets here.

[00:23:05] You know, and even with coaching companies,

[00:23:06] so like you can't coach if you are one of our athletes.

[00:23:10] Yeah. But I think it's just super cool because

[00:23:13] you all of a sudden you're not just having an effect on one person.

[00:23:16] You're having an effect of one person that has an effect on, say, 10 people.

[00:23:20] And yeah, it's this echo where if you can add something positive,

[00:23:24] if you can just give them an understanding of failing gracefully

[00:23:28] and how to come interact with that.

[00:23:30] And they get to do that with their other athletes.

[00:23:32] And just inadvertently, you know, you're like this.

[00:23:35] You have this impact beyond what you thought.

[00:23:37] And so it's worth bringing up about it.

[00:23:40] It was really cool kind of a realization I've had pretty recently.

[00:23:43] That's so true.

[00:23:44] And I think that that's true for most of the things that we do.

[00:23:48] But in that scenario, you see it really quickly

[00:23:52] and you can see it concretely and with a lot of immediacy, right?

[00:23:57] Like it's not just, oh, hypothetically,

[00:24:00] I may have done something that had a positive impact on one person

[00:24:03] and that may have hypothetically impacted other people.

[00:24:06] Right. We know that that's true.

[00:24:08] Yeah.

[00:24:09] But those are the stories that we often don't get to see play out.

[00:24:12] But in your in this case, you actually get to see it play out

[00:24:15] and talk about it and be in it and reflect on it.

[00:24:19] That's yeah, it's so powerful.

[00:24:21] Yeah, it's so much fun.

[00:24:22] I mean, sometimes it's the coaching conversations aren't even about them.

[00:24:26] It's we spend an hour talking about how they can kind of use these tools

[00:24:31] for other people and then I don't even have to say it to them directly.

[00:24:34] They just do it without you.

[00:24:36] It's like, hey, do this with your, you know, if you want to connect with your athletes,

[00:24:39] like try this, you know, what?

[00:24:41] What if you listen in this way?

[00:24:42] You know, what?

[00:24:43] What if you use what they were telling you to push them in this direction

[00:24:45] and help them find this thing and then somebody clicks in their head

[00:24:48] and they're like, yeah, cool, cool, cool.

[00:24:51] So I just I got it today. I got it this week. We're good.

[00:24:53] Yeah.

[00:24:55] I love this. Well, I, you know, my follow up question was going to be,

[00:24:59] all right, you know, what are we like talking about the art of being mentored?

[00:25:02] But then I wanted to follow up and ask you about the art of mentorship.

[00:25:05] And I mean, we're already there and you're in this role now as a coach.

[00:25:08] And there's a lot of experience here to draw on.

[00:25:10] We could talk about your experience as a pro athlete or even before that

[00:25:12] when you were, you know, doing clinics for co-ops and community shops.

[00:25:16] How did your experiences sort of feed into this?

[00:25:18] Because it seems like you've really gravitated to this role.

[00:25:21] And from the outside looking in, it seemed that you were already

[00:25:24] mentoring people in the sport, even as you were you were racing yourself.

[00:25:28] Is it something that you've already like that's that you've always been drawn to?

[00:25:31] Or do you think that there was this was something that your early

[00:25:34] experience has sort of shaped in you?

[00:25:36] That's interesting.

[00:25:38] I would say that I think in terms of how I learned best,

[00:25:44] externalizing and practicing and

[00:25:48] trying to connect dots, you know, beyond simple instruction is really helpful for me.

[00:25:56] And so I think that throughout my whole life, I

[00:26:02] or as starting at some point, I think, especially with the bikes,

[00:26:05] I think it was just kind of a ticket for me.

[00:26:07] It really has just been a process of being learning.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:11] Me teaching is just regurgitating what I know.

[00:26:14] It's an extension of the learning process.

[00:26:16] It's an extension of the learning process.

[00:26:17] And it helps me, OK, did I did I get that right?

[00:26:20] It gives me confidence to say that, like, I know it.

[00:26:23] If I could tell somebody how to do this or if I could help them do this,

[00:26:27] it gives me the confidence to know, it gives me the confirmation to know that I.

[00:26:30] OK, yeah, this is good.

[00:26:31] I've got my confirmation here.

[00:26:33] This is solid.

[00:26:34] I think what it has also done for me beyond anything else

[00:26:40] is helped me develop relationships with people

[00:26:43] and helped me develop the tools and pathways to develop relationships with people

[00:26:48] because it you don't teach something by saying, here's how you do it.

[00:26:52] Do it. Right?

[00:26:54] You could you could.

[00:26:58] I mean, that's a public school system doesn't I think that, you know,

[00:27:01] there's a way and some people respond to that and some people don't respond to that.

[00:27:04] And I think the reality is that in order to mentor

[00:27:09] in order to teach anything, there's a psychological component to it.

[00:27:15] There's a connection to the person whom you're teaching.

[00:27:18] You're not teaching a subject.

[00:27:19] You're teaching a person the subject.

[00:27:21] Yeah. And so I think for me as a very social individual,

[00:27:26] it helped me develop my social attitude, you know,

[00:27:29] my like the vernacular use of people and how I interact

[00:27:34] in terms of when I listen, when I talk.

[00:27:37] I'm a talker.

[00:27:38] I'm a voracious talker.

[00:27:39] And so like I had to learn at some point and still have to learn better

[00:27:45] to listen and to draw out the thought process

[00:27:51] and the questions from other people.

[00:27:53] And so I think through the years of whether it was doing clinics

[00:27:58] or working with athletes, working with teams,

[00:28:01] my process has always been how do I extract information

[00:28:06] from a person?

[00:28:08] You see very clearly results.

[00:28:11] You see very clearly when someone translates theory

[00:28:16] or a concept onto the bike.

[00:28:19] I guess what I really like about Cyclograph, too, is that like it's so nuanced.

[00:28:24] It takes a very well developed ability to translate

[00:28:31] concept into motion and you're fighting all these odds with like the bike

[00:28:37] and the conditions and yourself, competition.

[00:28:41] The bike is really not meant for this.

[00:28:43] Like it's really not.

[00:28:44] It's really dumb that you're doing it.

[00:28:47] And it's you have to learn where the consequences are to that.

[00:28:51] Right. And so I think for me, just emotionally being able

[00:28:55] to translate my emotions or my thoughts and my wants and needs

[00:29:00] and desires into usable words and phrases.

[00:29:05] Coaching has been a process of mentorship and teaching has been a process

[00:29:08] for me to develop that language through that.

[00:29:11] It's been a process of me developing a process in which to

[00:29:17] get that language from other people and translate it back into my head

[00:29:20] and then down into the bike.

[00:29:21] Right. So it's kind of this back and forth process constantly

[00:29:24] of communication.

[00:29:25] Yeah. It's really fun when you look at it that way.

[00:29:28] I mean, for it really is for me.

[00:29:30] You know, it's like this challenge constantly of just like,

[00:29:32] did what I just said, did it go through?

[00:29:35] Like, did they did it reach them?

[00:29:37] Is it going to translate?

[00:29:38] How do I redo it?

[00:29:39] You know, how can I how can I now meet this person kind of where they're at

[00:29:43] to reach the goal that we want?

[00:29:45] Well, this is I mean, it's the crux of connection period, right?

[00:29:49] Is to understand that what you intend to say may not be what actually lands

[00:29:56] and that what really matters is what actually lands and how that impacts

[00:30:00] the person who's receiving the information.

[00:30:03] And then vice versa, learning to understand that what you're hearing

[00:30:08] from the person speaking to you might not even be what they intend

[00:30:12] and learning how to have that back and forth to create a genuine connection.

[00:30:17] That's so much more than teaching and bikes.

[00:30:20] Absolutely. And I think here's the reality.

[00:30:22] And what I learned from bike racing over the years is that success

[00:30:27] doesn't come in a vacuum of trust.

[00:30:30] And I think thinking about all the directors and people

[00:30:34] that I've had to kind of answer to or listen to over the years,

[00:30:38] often my least successful times came when I didn't have trust in those people.

[00:30:42] And so I didn't have trust in those people because I didn't feel seen by those people.

[00:30:46] I didn't feel like they saw me as an individual who had these certain capabilities.

[00:30:51] They saw me as like, hey, you've won some bike races.

[00:30:54] Go win this one.

[00:30:54] And that just never sat very well with me.

[00:30:58] And it just was always really hard and it made it really hard working on big teams where

[00:31:04] I was often on a road team with like people I'd really I just never even talked to,

[00:31:09] you know, like I never talked to some of them.

[00:31:11] And some I'm good friends with still and some I barely ever spoke with.

[00:31:16] You know, we did we go on stage races and I barely spoke to them.

[00:31:19] Yeah.

[00:31:20] And so my connection to them just wasn't ever strong.

[00:31:22] It still isn't.

[00:31:23] And those are the people actually those are the situations where I think about

[00:31:28] the most now because I feel like I missed a connection there.

[00:31:32] Right.

[00:31:32] Like I missed an opportunity to grow.

[00:31:36] I missed an opportunity to perform in some way because I wasn't able

[00:31:39] to connect with those people.

[00:31:40] And for whatever reason, that haunts me much longer than anything else.

[00:31:44] That's so interesting.

[00:31:45] I really relate to that.

[00:31:47] I can go back at moments in my career too, where I feel like I could have gotten

[00:31:50] so much more not only out of myself, but out of the situation and the experience

[00:31:54] and not necessarily even in a selfish way, but also like if I had been connected

[00:31:58] and engaged on a deeper level that I would have been able to contribute more.

[00:32:03] And that is kind of a hard pill to swallow.

[00:32:06] That is tough.

[00:32:07] But it's also a two way street, you know, and I think that's what

[00:32:10] you have to realize too, that it's always a two way street, you know,

[00:32:13] you, especially as an athlete have so much expectation on you.

[00:32:19] You have so much riding on your shoulders that it's not necessarily always

[00:32:25] fair to put you as the athlete in the position to have to build these

[00:32:29] relationships beyond what's easy and accessible.

[00:32:33] Yeah.

[00:32:33] And I think that's a really difficult thing.

[00:32:35] And that's where good leadership comes from, I think, in a team, right?

[00:32:38] And where you see really good team bonding, you just see teams come

[00:32:42] and you're like, how do these people just play it every time they show up?

[00:32:46] You know, and they're like hanging out, high five.

[00:32:48] You see them at the dinner table together, you know, and you're like,

[00:32:51] they're just unbelievable.

[00:32:52] This is like unbeatable force, right?

[00:32:54] And that it's true because they have real connection, you know,

[00:32:57] and you see other teams floating around, not talking to each other on their phones,

[00:33:01] different little squads of people floating around.

[00:33:03] And that takes that takes leadership to function.

[00:33:07] Big time.

[00:33:07] And I've seen those teams and I've been on teams that have

[00:33:11] that chemistry and I've been on teams that don't.

[00:33:13] And the magic of it is when you have that chemistry,

[00:33:18] you find an extra 10, 20, 30 percent every single time.

[00:33:23] And you know that that's what's happening with all of your other teammates, too.

[00:33:26] And you can trust that that's happening.

[00:33:28] And I agree that trust is a huge ingredient of that.

[00:33:30] But I'm recalling a moment where I remember a director

[00:33:33] that we were working with who had cultivated that kind of chemistry

[00:33:36] said, all right, you know, make sure that you guys go sign in as a team.

[00:33:39] And he said there's nothing more intimidating than seeing an entire team

[00:33:43] rock up to sign in laughing, relaxed and having the best time together.

[00:33:48] And that really stuck with me because it's so true.

[00:33:51] Like you kind of think about intimidation as being, you know, like

[00:33:55] the hard stare or the glare or the, you know,

[00:33:58] the really serious intense face.

[00:34:01] No, it's the people that are super relaxed

[00:34:03] and having a great time that are the scariest.

[00:34:07] Absolutely.

[00:34:07] Because you're like, what do they know that I don't?

[00:34:10] I'm terrified of what's about to happen.

[00:34:14] We're about to go to war here and you guys are like laughing again here.

[00:34:20] So tell me about you mentioned the times where you didn't have that trust.

[00:34:24] What about when you did have the trust and you did have that leadership?

[00:34:26] What was that like?

[00:34:27] It's a passage.

[00:34:28] I mean, when you do have that trust, I mean, it goes it goes such a long way.

[00:34:32] And I think what I found to, you know, I found my ditch in Cyclocross, right?

[00:34:36] And it's a very individualist export, very.

[00:34:40] But I've also been on teams.

[00:34:41] I've always been on teams for Cyclocross.

[00:34:43] And so you kind of run this like interesting dynamic,

[00:34:45] especially when you're like racing each other.

[00:34:48] I have been in multiple situations, you know,

[00:34:51] somewhere there's a situation of distrust, you know, where you're like

[00:34:55] you're trying to kind of your competitors as well as teammates,

[00:34:58] but primarily competitors.

[00:35:00] And then there's the world of there's the different world of

[00:35:03] where your teammates first and competitors second.

[00:35:05] And I think for me, navigating that came a couple of different ways.

[00:35:10] When I didn't have the teammates necessarily that I could cultivate

[00:35:15] the trusting portion with, you know, I really relied on the staff

[00:35:20] that worked with the team.

[00:35:22] And I think this gave me a really, I think it gave me a wonderful insight

[00:35:27] into what makes a good effective staff.

[00:35:31] You know, you can have the best mechanic in the world,

[00:35:33] but if you don't trust them,

[00:35:34] it's a energy stuff to work with them.

[00:35:36] It's not good.

[00:35:37] You know, your team management can be fantastic.

[00:35:39] But if you just you just know they're never going to make the right choice

[00:35:42] for you, then like it's just not a good fit with your teammates.

[00:35:45] It can be a little bit different, right?

[00:35:46] Like, OK, we both just get paid to be here and to win races.

[00:35:50] One of us has to win this race.

[00:35:51] You know, that's the that's the thing.

[00:35:53] Like we're here and one of us has to win this race.

[00:35:55] So we can be miserable all the time and just be fearing each other.

[00:36:01] Or we can use each other as a way to calm ourselves

[00:36:07] and to have solidarity, right?

[00:36:09] And I have always pushed myself even when I didn't want to

[00:36:14] to be more open and more giving with what I do know of my insights

[00:36:20] or also my tactics right away.

[00:36:22] Like this is what I'm going to do.

[00:36:25] And it's never failed me because it's got to push me

[00:36:30] to be smarter.

[00:36:32] It's going to push me to go deeper when I need to.

[00:36:35] And it's going to push me to say, like, OK, if I'm right now good as I can get,

[00:36:40] if I help this person who's second to me,

[00:36:44] come up to my level and even challenge my level.

[00:36:48] Well, then that's the push that I need.

[00:36:50] Like that's fantastic.

[00:36:51] That's a tool for me to use.

[00:36:54] And I think adopting that mindset early on was just super helpful

[00:36:59] because when I came to the sport, my immediate reaction was go find the better

[00:37:04] riders and then be their best friend, figure it out.

[00:37:08] Yeah.

[00:37:09] And then you move through that and then you're like, OK, cool.

[00:37:12] You know, we have this really great relationship

[00:37:14] and I had this other person that's pushing me.

[00:37:16] And once you make those relationships, they always push you,

[00:37:18] whether it's results or not, they're always going to push you.

[00:37:20] Because they have different mindsets.

[00:37:21] They have different different ways of going about things.

[00:37:24] Always been helpful to me to have a different point of view.

[00:37:27] But when you run out of that progression,

[00:37:31] then it only made sense to me to try to build up people around me

[00:37:36] or to try to kind of form alliances where maybe they weren't my teammate.

[00:37:39] But I knew that they were going to be the person on the day

[00:37:42] that was going to be able to help me the most progress,

[00:37:46] you know, challenge me the most.

[00:37:48] There were a lot of days where like

[00:37:50] so powers, you know,

[00:37:52] Jerry Powers was a really good example of this.

[00:37:54] Like, who is my mentor at first?

[00:37:56] And then became my biggest rival.

[00:37:58] And eventually we had to go from,

[00:38:02] OK, from mentorship to rivalry.

[00:38:05] So we're rivals, but we're also like a Patriots in a way.

[00:38:09] We're trained together.

[00:38:11] We are, you know, I'm on the development program

[00:38:13] where I came through that development program.

[00:38:15] We're trying to both do the same thing.

[00:38:17] But we're also trying to beat each other and like

[00:38:19] earn the same money, etc.

[00:38:22] So we kind of learned to like develop the two different relationships.

[00:38:28] One being a friendship, you know, I always say,

[00:38:31] like you need to be two different people as an athlete.

[00:38:33] You need to be inside of tape, Steven,

[00:38:35] and you need to be outside of tape, Steven.

[00:38:37] Oh, that's a really good way of putting it.

[00:38:39] Right, because you do.

[00:38:40] You really need these different personas.

[00:38:43] You need to interact differently in those two different worlds.

[00:38:46] And we can be best friends.

[00:38:48] Best friends.

[00:38:49] The moment we cross that line, we have a stated objective

[00:38:53] and short of hurting each other.

[00:38:56] Well, we should do everything to push, you know,

[00:38:59] our own agenda in that way.

[00:39:01] There's plenty of times where maybe it was my teammate,

[00:39:03] Curtis, for example, Curtis White, where I'd say like,

[00:39:06] all right, dude, here's how we're going to work

[00:39:07] everyone over today.

[00:39:08] You know, like what do you think?

[00:39:09] You know, can we do this?

[00:39:10] Like, and then once we whittle down,

[00:39:12] then we fight each other, right?

[00:39:14] So let's get rid of everybody else and then do this.

[00:39:16] And there were times where it was like powers and I

[00:39:18] were carried, Werner or whatever outside of my tent

[00:39:22] where it was just like, all right, you're the best today.

[00:39:24] So how do we get just alone, shed everyone else and then we race?

[00:39:28] Right.

[00:39:28] When you start thinking about your competitors in that way,

[00:39:32] if this also this totally goes for go to.

[00:39:34] And I tell this to athletes that are racing road races on their own.

[00:39:39] And they're like, I can't be the team.

[00:39:41] Like, dude, if you're just a one person show on a race course,

[00:39:45] everybody's your teammate.

[00:39:46] You just need to kind of be there, but like get out of the way just a little bit.

[00:39:51] Follow around everyone's your best friend.

[00:39:55] Exactly.

[00:39:56] You know?

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:59] Yeah.

[00:39:59] This makes so much sense.

[00:40:00] And it's interesting the way that you're articulating this because I think

[00:40:03] it would be easy to characterize the competitiveness of top athletes

[00:40:07] as being a desire to beat everybody.

[00:40:11] And there's a really big difference between the will to win

[00:40:14] and the will to beat everybody.

[00:40:16] It's not that you are not you, but when I when I talked to athletes

[00:40:21] who are at this level and I felt this way too, it wasn't.

[00:40:24] Yes, the winning is awesome.

[00:40:26] And that is absolutely a goal and we love to win.

[00:40:30] But it's not about beating people.

[00:40:31] It's about seeking excellence.

[00:40:35] And if I'm going to figure out what my best looks like,

[00:40:39] I need a competitor there pushing me because I can't do that by myself.

[00:40:44] I can push myself pretty hard in training, but I can never push myself

[00:40:46] as hard as I can when I'm in the arena pitted against a competitor.

[00:40:51] And so we become allies in that sense because we're teaching each other

[00:40:55] when a competitor bests me in a race.

[00:40:58] I've just learned something about my weaknesses and where I need to go

[00:41:01] back and work on myself as an athlete.

[00:41:05] And that helps me become better and closer to this greatness

[00:41:09] that I'm hoping to achieve.

[00:41:10] But it's it's a very different mindset than I want to go.

[00:41:14] Beat everybody.

[00:41:15] So 100 percent.

[00:41:16] I think when you let beating people be your prerogative,

[00:41:21] you're letting your ego rather than your heart drive what you want to do.

[00:41:27] And I think ego always loses because ego lives alone.

[00:41:32] And in the end, like beating people just isolates and wanting to beat people,

[00:41:38] wanting to beat this, wanting to beat that will always isolate a person

[00:41:42] that ends up being on the other side of it.

[00:41:44] And so I think being a good competitor is letting your heart drive things,

[00:41:49] you know, letting like how is this good for me?

[00:41:51] Because beating people isn't good for anybody when we see that with like war

[00:41:56] a lot of time.

[00:41:57] You just want to start a war and beat somebody down.

[00:41:59] Like nothing comes from that.

[00:42:02] Everybody loses.

[00:42:03] Everybody loses.

[00:42:05] And so I don't know.

[00:42:06] I just I think you have a moral dilemma as an athlete that goes beyond.

[00:42:10] It really is who you are as a person, how you interact with your athletics.

[00:42:15] And they think that it's necessary to have that battle.

[00:42:18] I think that where the mentorship and good coaching comes in

[00:42:22] is helping an athlete develop that so that it

[00:42:27] transcends their athletics into their life, you know, and then they can start

[00:42:31] kind of looking at everything in that perspective of of cooperation

[00:42:36] and community beyond any of that.

[00:42:38] Yeah.

[00:42:39] Yeah, you can see competition as a cooperative effort, not just as this zero

[00:42:44] sum game. And when you do that, what that looks like is what you've been describing.

[00:42:49] Yes, you may be going out there and wanting to win the race

[00:42:52] and you might be strategizing with your teammate or even competitors

[00:42:55] on how to make that happen.

[00:42:57] But your goal ultimately is to achieve whatever greatness is within you.

[00:43:03] And in order for you to do that, you need competitors who can push you

[00:43:07] and therefore your job is to not only learn from them, but teach them

[00:43:14] because the more that you can teach them and get them better,

[00:43:16] the more they elevate your game and it just becomes this really beautiful

[00:43:20] virtuous cycle. Absolutely.

[00:43:22] You can't be a competitor.

[00:43:23] Back. It doesn't happen.

[00:43:25] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:43:28] Yeah.

[00:43:30] We'll be back with more from Stephen after this quick break.

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[00:45:14] Yes, this really resonates.

[00:45:17] So and it's kind of, I mean, just to get super cheesy here for a minute,

[00:45:20] it definitely ties into the title of the podcast, the be a good wheel podcast.

[00:45:23] And I'm sure that there are more people that we can count out there

[00:45:28] who would cite you as being a good wheel in their lives.

[00:45:30] Is there somebody that stands out to you that was a good wheel for you

[00:45:33] that you want to just give a quick shout out?

[00:45:34] Doesn't it?

[00:45:35] I know there were probably lots.

[00:45:36] So we say this with a caveat that it's hard to pick one.

[00:45:40] But yeah, it is hard to pick one.

[00:45:43] I mean, you know, I've been really lucky, I think in my life to have

[00:45:46] Al Donahue who still runs Jamfum program.

[00:45:49] He was my coach for years and years and years.

[00:45:51] And it's still one of my best friends from all time in each other's weddings.

[00:45:55] And just he's the only person who my three year old has stayed over with.

[00:46:00] And then his wife Catherine.

[00:46:02] So, you know, still going strong in that arena.

[00:46:06] That's big trust. That's big trust.

[00:46:08] Yeah, you know, there's just been so many.

[00:46:10] I mean, I'm really lucky to count so many more people as friends than not in the sport.

[00:46:17] I could count on one hand, the people whom I don't have relationships

[00:46:22] to live in my career.

[00:46:24] I think it's a very, very small number of people.

[00:46:26] So I'm really, really lucky to both have racers,

[00:46:30] you know, coaches and mentors that I still really look up to

[00:46:33] and that I still call and need from time to time.

[00:46:37] Yeah. I mean, that's that's success by any definition right there.

[00:46:42] I mean, big time.

[00:46:44] Yeah, I feel so lucky in that way.

[00:46:46] And I think I have always kind of been

[00:46:51] reticent to do my own biography and like, you know, especially when we're talking,

[00:46:55] you know, introduce yourself, you know, whatever.

[00:46:57] Because, you know, I had a career where I won and lost by races.

[00:47:02] But almost none of that matters to me.

[00:47:05] And the slightest, it's really in all the relationships that I built.

[00:47:08] And for anybody who is in their career right now, you know,

[00:47:12] the best advice I could possibly give them is like, hey, just build relationships

[00:47:16] because these are your friends.

[00:47:17] These are the people whom helped you do this and they will more than likely

[00:47:21] help you way beyond bike racing and you probably help them with your now.

[00:47:26] And eventually, like you might cheers to reminisce on your bike racing life

[00:47:31] or your athletic life and say, yeah, I'm running that race.

[00:47:33] Really cool.

[00:47:34] With that win, whatever.

[00:47:35] But the thing you're more going to talk about any experiences you have

[00:47:38] together about the wins, you know, those are just such fleeting, small parts of it.

[00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:45] Yeah.

[00:47:45] When I think about the highlights of my career, I mean, the things

[00:47:49] that come to mind are the moments where, you know, teammate collapses

[00:47:53] in my arms crying or, you know, just those like those moments

[00:47:56] of like really deep connection and trust that, you know, sometimes

[00:47:59] they happen on the bike and often they happen off the bike.

[00:48:02] But I, yeah, yeah.

[00:48:05] The relationships are the things that stand the test of time.

[00:48:08] The results, they fade.

[00:48:10] 100%.

[00:48:11] You know?

[00:48:12] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:48:13] 100%.

[00:48:13] So, you know, I'm looking forward to continue to building relationships

[00:48:16] and I think it's what kind of keeps me in the sport beyond bike racing.

[00:48:21] You know, for me as a competitor, it's been really difficult to balance

[00:48:28] what I want out of my life without racing.

[00:48:34] You know, what do bikes mean to me now that, you know, I kind of sent

[00:48:37] that path for so long, you know, just more than a competitor for

[00:48:41] more than 10 years, you know, almost a decade and a half.

[00:48:45] And, you know, some people have had a longer career than that for sure.

[00:48:48] But now, you know, never wanting to have stepped over the line

[00:48:57] of wanting to be on a bike, you know, for one reason or another.

[00:49:03] I did get to that point, you know, with injury and just pushing myself

[00:49:07] way too far to keep up.

[00:49:13] Kind of reconnecting has been really difficult.

[00:49:16] You know, it's like you've got to power read around your bike for 10 years.

[00:49:20] You just take it off one day and ride without it.

[00:49:25] Yeah.

[00:49:26] You know, some people might be able to do that,

[00:49:29] but old ADHD hide over here in no way.

[00:49:31] I'm just like, what am I doing right now?

[00:49:39] So I think like coaching has been a really cool way for me to continue

[00:49:45] to connect and actually grow my

[00:49:51] my kind of community and to grow my impact.

[00:49:54] I think I'm, you know, I feel like it's a it's a it's a better

[00:49:57] way for me to grow or it's a better way for me to share

[00:50:02] and be impactful than bike racing was, you know, they just, you know,

[00:50:08] not, not that I kind of live and die by the, you know, your

[00:50:14] you're only as good as your last race.

[00:50:16] But I think in terms of I don't actually think it's it's a really bad

[00:50:22] phrase, but I do think that there are times when your relevance

[00:50:28] is much greater.

[00:50:31] Right.

[00:50:31] And those things happen to, you know, coincide with results.

[00:50:37] Unless you're very, very good at social media.

[00:50:41] Yeah.

[00:50:44] You know, that's a can of words right there.

[00:50:46] And I just that's never been, you know, I've never been

[00:50:49] able to sell myself to that degree and or kind of stomach selling

[00:50:54] myself in that way.

[00:50:57] And so if my only real connection is through, you know, my relevance

[00:51:05] and I can't be relevant by winning bike races anymore,

[00:51:10] you know, how do I do it?

[00:51:11] You know, that's always been a that's been a struggle, you know,

[00:51:14] but I think I found a path now through coaching.

[00:51:16] So let's talk about let's talk about retirement.

[00:51:19] What what I mean, you're already outlining some of the specific struggles with it.

[00:51:25] What has it been like for you transitioning out of the competitive racing scene?

[00:51:30] Challenge, not a real challenge.

[00:51:34] You know, for a lot of reasons, I mean, my last year of racing,

[00:51:40] I was just had a lot of injuries and it was a real struggle

[00:51:44] because I kind of I've always I've always looked at my career

[00:51:50] like I was kind of late to the game and I had so much to catch up on, etc.

[00:51:53] And when I'm just kind of riddled with injuries that kept me from doing what I

[00:51:57] want to do, it felt like I was falling more and more behind.

[00:52:03] When that last year of racing, too, you know, we had our

[00:52:08] my wife and a head or child, Georgia, and that was a really big shift.

[00:52:14] It was really big shift.

[00:52:15] And it was really difficult for me to just kind of balance being a parent

[00:52:23] and being an athlete.

[00:52:25] And, you know, I think I kind of decided over that time that I don't

[00:52:29] I don't think I can balance those things not in a healthy way.

[00:52:36] And then just having all this energy

[00:52:41] and drive and then all of a sudden not having the output for it.

[00:52:47] There's an unexpected

[00:52:53] an unexpected difficulty in terms of like how to just kind of manage

[00:53:00] my expectations day to day and like also recalibrate what my priorities are.

[00:53:07] So one part of the process is that I went through

[00:53:15] ADHD diagnosis kind of pathway and

[00:53:21] that actually opened up

[00:53:26] an immense amount of tools and also relief for just like, yeah.

[00:53:34] OK, cool.

[00:53:35] Here are the things that like this all makes sense.

[00:53:38] You know, my you know, this diagnosis totally jives with like how I've lived

[00:53:43] my life every step of the way and how I used different things to self mitigate.

[00:53:49] You know, whether when I was younger, you know, before bike racing,

[00:53:54] whether it was like, you know, cigarettes, drugs and alcohol.

[00:53:59] And then it was by racing was just another way to kind of like

[00:54:04] it was a great outlet.

[00:54:05] It was probably the most positive outlet I could do, but it was also kind of

[00:54:10] untethered outlay.

[00:54:12] You know, it's just kind of like, yeah, un-wieldy.

[00:54:15] It was just out there, you know, just spraying energy into the world.

[00:54:17] Just going for it.

[00:54:19] Just going for it, you know, with no clear end in sight.

[00:54:22] Right. It's just the idea that there's some perfection on the other side,

[00:54:26] you know, that you'll be done whenever I reach this thing, you know, whatever.

[00:54:31] And and I think my personality and my kind of like,

[00:54:42] I guess my kind of neurodivergent nature led to

[00:54:49] that kind of

[00:54:55] the combination of drive and lifestyle that is good for bike racing.

[00:55:02] You know, that kind of yeah, yeah, that monk lifestyle.

[00:55:06] Right. It's very easy for me by nature to just have total tunnel vision all the time

[00:55:14] and to do things for me and to

[00:55:20] take every consideration for what I need and very little for other anything else.

[00:55:25] You know, whether it's my family, my immediate family, my extended family,

[00:55:30] my friends, anything like that.

[00:55:32] You know, I'm so capable of just putting blinders on and, you know,

[00:55:40] getting the job that I want to get done, done

[00:55:45] and find it very, very difficult to do things that I don't want to do.

[00:55:50] And I know that's like it sounds really

[00:55:54] easy for a lot of people to just be like, yeah, nobody wants to do hard things.

[00:55:57] But I think when you when you look at it from an ADHD perspective,

[00:56:02] you see these really large barriers,

[00:56:05] you know, these real, very real,

[00:56:09] you know, chemical barriers, you know, and all of a sudden

[00:56:13] you see, oh, OK, this is a common theme.

[00:56:18] You know, this isn't just me, you know, so then you get to kind of

[00:56:21] you get to lose a little bit of the kind of

[00:56:27] shame around it, you know, big time.

[00:56:30] And, you know, and you start to unpack it a little bit and you start to see like,

[00:56:34] OK, other people have been successful with this.

[00:56:38] And yeah, the thing that I'm the most, you know,

[00:56:43] afraid of is like being putting on those blinders and ignoring the world.

[00:56:47] Isn't bad.

[00:56:49] It's actually my superpower, you know, it makes me

[00:56:53] absolutely capable of doing whatever I want to put my mind to.

[00:56:57] It's just that I have to figure out how to get my mind to want to do it.

[00:57:03] And those are the tools that I've just lacked for a really long time.

[00:57:07] Yeah, you know, some some people to medication and some people it's

[00:57:10] it's just, you know, it's a normal kind of tools, whether, you know,

[00:57:14] it's just writing things down so you remember them, you know, or the ratio.

[00:57:18] And so yeah.

[00:57:21] Yeah, I have found the most joy probably in my retirement in the last

[00:57:27] since getting that diagnosis, you know, just being able to pause

[00:57:31] and be able to kind of recognize when things are not OK with me and and help.

[00:57:39] Finding the tools to help me get back on track or even find a track.

[00:57:43] I mean, I'm just now getting the point, you know, two years retired

[00:57:46] to where I'm putting a business plan together and thinking like, OK, yeah,

[00:57:50] I actually need to have a direction here.

[00:57:52] I can't just kind of float through this.

[00:57:57] Part of that was because I wanted time to just float and to see where I was

[00:58:01] because that's why I got to wear any anyway.

[00:58:04] So yeah, I don't want to ignore that.

[00:58:06] I don't want to ignore that part of my life, but I also have a child and a wife

[00:58:12] and the house and all these things that like depend on me not just floating

[00:58:18] through the universe.

[00:58:21] If that's OK.

[00:58:24] So, you know, I'm kind of perpetually in the midst of finding that out,

[00:58:28] figuring that out and being more stationary, being more physically

[00:58:32] located in areas is also difficult, you know, not being on the road constantly.

[00:58:38] You know, there's a lot of shifts.

[00:58:39] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:41] Well, the diagnosis thing really resonates with me because I similarly had

[00:58:45] a recent diagnosis of ADHD and in my last year of racing, I got a really bad

[00:58:50] concussion and as a part of the treatment for the concussion, they did

[00:58:53] a neuropsych evaluation just to see make sure that I wasn't suffering

[00:58:57] from any cognitive effects of the concussion, which thankfully I was not.

[00:59:02] But I remember sitting down to do the assessment with the psychiatrist

[00:59:05] and he was asking about my history and I joked to him that I've been self

[00:59:11] medicating for undiagnosed ADD since I was in high school with high volumes

[00:59:15] of exercise. We both laughed about it, but then I came back on the

[00:59:20] evaluation that I he's like, Oh, remember when you were joking about that?

[00:59:24] No, you actually have that thing like very severely.

[00:59:27] And I had a similar sense of relief because what it did for me was it made

[00:59:35] me realize that all of these things that I have long believed to be

[00:59:39] character flaws in myself that I've just constantly struggled with and felt

[00:59:44] ashamed about, I can finally have stepped back and have this more, you

[00:59:50] know, like meta perspective on it and have compassion for myself that, you

[00:59:53] know, that, Oh, this is harder for you and not just in a, well, yeah, it's

[00:59:59] hard to do things you don't want to do kind of way.

[01:00:00] But in a like there are actual chemical neurobiological reasons why you

[01:00:09] might physically feel paralyzed from getting up from a chair to do a

[01:00:12] simple task. Like it's so much more severe than it sounds when you

[01:00:16] just say it like that. And kind of the release of moral judgment with

[01:00:21] the diagnosis was huge for me because it was just kind of like, Oh,

[01:00:26] and then yeah, suddenly my whole life makes sense.

[01:00:32] Absolutely. 100%. You're just like, Oh yeah, yep, that checks out. Yep.

[01:00:36] Oh, that thing checks out. Yep. Definitely. Yep. Okay. Cool.

[01:00:40] Yeah. And even your description of the blinders, it's you know,

[01:00:44] I think people think of attention deficit is like, Oh, you have a

[01:00:47] hard time paying attention. Well, only selectively, but you also

[01:00:51] have this uncanny ability to hyper focus for extended like ridiculous

[01:00:57] amounts of time, which to your point is a superpower because you can

[01:01:02] really go deep on learning new skills becoming a phenomenal

[01:01:09] athlete, right? Like these are things that serve us really well in

[01:01:13] some circumstances, but they are debilitating and others.

[01:01:17] Absolutely. And I would, I would recommend anyone who even

[01:01:21] remotely feels like they have a sense that they may have some

[01:01:25] form of ADHD or dyslexia or anything like that. Just like,

[01:01:27] just do it. Just go in and find out, you know, I think it's a

[01:01:31] spectrum, right? And then you look at where you land on it

[01:01:35] and what how certain things affect your life. And then

[01:01:38] also you just get all these tools. You know, I think it's

[01:01:40] not about medications for everybody. You know, I think some

[01:01:44] people, there's a really good use for medication. You look at

[01:01:48] it, say like, Okay, cool, you know, this is the one that works

[01:01:50] for you. I think especially with, you know, as athletes, like,

[01:01:57] hey, you want to you want to real performance enhancing drug,

[01:02:00] like figure out how to harness yourself and then figure out

[01:02:05] how to stop getting in your own way. Yeah, like, you would be

[01:02:09] just an incredible athlete. I mean, imagine coming into the

[01:02:12] sport, knowing what you know now. And just going, Okay, cool,

[01:02:16] here's how I operate and here's how I'm gonna use this to my

[01:02:19] advantage. Yeah, like,

[01:02:21] well, because you spend so much time. Yeah, you spend so much

[01:02:24] time fighting your own wiring. And when you understand how

[01:02:29] you're wired, then you can work with it in a way that's

[01:02:33] really constructive versus constantly fighting with it,

[01:02:37] not getting results and then judging yourself for it, right?

[01:02:40] Whole time. Absolutely. And that's common with most athletes

[01:02:44] in with, like, that's it. That's right. That's the MO for a lot

[01:02:47] of people is just like constantly fighting themselves, blaming

[01:02:51] themselves for certain things for not being other, they're not

[01:02:54] being this other thing, you know, this, this, this other

[01:02:57] picture of kind of greatness, when it really does come down

[01:03:00] to like, Hey, what are you going to be the best at? You

[01:03:03] know, what are your tools that you have to work with? Like

[01:03:05] what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses? Not

[01:03:07] what is everyone else doing? And if you can look at it from an

[01:03:12] ADHD standpoint, you know, if you have that or you have

[01:03:15] symptoms of it, then man, you just all of a sudden, right,

[01:03:19] like you have this moral weight lifted off your

[01:03:21] shoulders, where you're just like, I'm not a jerk that can't

[01:03:23] like return people phone call. I'm not just an idiot for

[01:03:27] completely forgetting that I had to like sign this

[01:03:29] contract. But like,

[01:03:33] you know, I just didn't set myself a reminder for it. And

[01:03:35] like, that's all it takes of that. You know, I just I don't

[01:03:37] have the workflow to do this. If this gets along with this

[01:03:41] conversation that I have a lot with athletes of like, Okay,

[01:03:44] so where are you on the spectrum of athlete, right? For your

[01:03:47] beginner athlete? Are you this is something that you're just

[01:03:49] kind of entering and then like, that sets the tone for what

[01:03:52] kind of expectations you have. And what kind of

[01:03:55] expectations I have as a coach. And then you have like

[01:03:57] the novice athlete is this just fun for you but you

[01:03:59] already do it. Fantastic. Then you have like, the elite

[01:04:03] level or the kind of pseudo elite level where that could be a

[01:04:07] number of things, you know, that could be like a I'm an elite

[01:04:10] racer that this is it. This is it for me. This is fantastic. I

[01:04:13] love doing this. I'm always going to be in our local elite.

[01:04:16] This is great. Then there's like the elite with aspirations

[01:04:19] of professionalism, right? And then the professional and or

[01:04:23] anywhere along that line, right? Where do you land on that

[01:04:26] spectrum? And if you kind of look at it as like a slide

[01:04:28] or you start to look at what different expectations that

[01:04:32] athletes should have both on themselves and you know, and

[01:04:35] other people around them, right? And at some point on that

[01:04:40] spectrum, you start to look at the slider starts to hit the

[01:04:44] expectation of being more professional in what you do. Because

[01:04:50] you have certain expectations and the expectations might just

[01:04:54] be results based. But if they're results based, then

[01:04:57] you have to have a professionalism of like getting

[01:04:59] yourself to that point and just like making a consistent

[01:05:01] benefit like beyond a team, whether it's a local team or a

[01:05:05] local team or professional team. Okay, there's the term

[01:05:10] professional because it's a job. And there are expectations

[01:05:14] related to that job. And so like what where are you on the

[01:05:18] spectrum and how do you incorporate being a

[01:05:21] professional? Because you can do a professional job without

[01:05:24] being a professional, right? Like you can do a good job and

[01:05:28] you can incorporate professionalism in what you do

[01:05:31] and it'll only make you better with or without the title of

[01:05:34] being a professional professional just comes when you get

[01:05:36] your contract and you sign and you get some money. It's your

[01:05:39] job, right? Yeah, yeah, that's it. But how you

[01:05:43] it's official, you're getting paid to ride 100%

[01:05:46] you're a professional, you're not a lead anymore. You're

[01:05:48] professional. And right. And even then, you know, most

[01:05:52] people have to kind of figure out what they do that is

[01:05:56] professional and like how they need to be more professional

[01:05:58] and how they interact with that. And really good riders

[01:06:00] often, you know, the best of the best of the best, figure

[01:06:03] out how to navigate professionalism. And often

[01:06:07] it's by virtue that they're physiological outlier. And

[01:06:12] therefore, it's things falling around them. Then there are

[01:06:15] the kind of a gotta work hard, you know, of like, you're

[01:06:18] not a physiological outlier, you've got to work your

[01:06:20] way through it. You also have to dot your eyes and

[01:06:22] cross your cheese and become more professional. Because you

[01:06:26] lack this innate wild talent. That's where most people fall

[01:06:31] into it. Yeah. And I think with an athlete who can harness

[01:06:38] those traits, whether it's a quote negative or quote

[01:06:42] positive trait, they can harness those things and

[01:06:44] they can learn to work with them to give them social

[01:06:46] tools to use them. And then also help their network

[01:06:50] help them with it, you know, help them interact with it.

[01:06:53] Then that's a level of professionalism that is really

[01:06:56] cool and should be kind of sought after. So yeah, you

[01:07:00] know, I can only see that an athlete with ADHD or any type

[01:07:05] of symptom from it that learns to harness that is just

[01:07:08] this next step up to becoming more professional. And it

[01:07:14] is really the should be the primary focus, you know,

[01:07:16] until they kind of get that style. My opinion, I

[01:07:19] totally agree with that. I think a lot of people might be

[01:07:23] hesitant because they might worry, well, I don't, especially

[01:07:26] as a parent, you know, I don't want to label my kid or even

[01:07:28] for themselves, like I don't want to put a label on myself

[01:07:30] and then the worry being that if you label yourself with

[01:07:35] this, you know, diagnosis, then somehow that's going

[01:07:39] to affect or create some kind of a self limiting

[01:07:42] belief. But I think that may have been the case, you

[01:07:45] know, decades ago when there was more stigma around it.

[01:07:48] But I think, number one, the more aware we are that to

[01:07:52] your point, you have tools. And once you understand how

[01:07:56] you work, you can work better. And then the more open

[01:08:00] we are about this stuff, the less stigma there is around

[01:08:03] it, which opens the opportunity for people to learn

[01:08:07] how they work and work more constructively and

[01:08:09] learn the tools that they need. Because if you just

[01:08:11] put blinders on and you continue to try to do

[01:08:14] things the way that, you know, if you're neuro divergent,

[01:08:19] you're trying to do things the way that neurotypical

[01:08:21] people do them. It might not work for you or it might

[01:08:24] work but at what cost. Yeah. And that's definitely

[01:08:29] been one of the things I've noticed is when I'm

[01:08:31] trying to do things when I'm trying to like cram

[01:08:35] my neurobiology into a mold that it just doesn't

[01:08:38] fit. It is so taxing and draining. And that's

[01:08:45] where my mental health really, really starts to

[01:08:47] suffer. And that's been a really important aspect

[01:08:50] of the diagnosis for me is to learn that and to be

[01:08:52] able to like check that before it goes off the rails.

[01:08:57] Absolutely. I mean, I've always had high anxiety

[01:09:00] and I've never really been able to pinpoint it.

[01:09:04] And I've always worked with a therapist to some

[01:09:06] degree and I have worked for a long time. And

[01:09:09] one of the only after I retired by freezing,

[01:09:14] did I realize that like, oh, there's actually an

[01:09:16] order in which I function the best. You were

[01:09:19] saying how you have self diagnosed or self

[01:09:22] medicated with high volumes of exercise. But

[01:09:26] like, that's a tool. That's actually a tool.

[01:09:29] Yeah. Where it fits in the sequence of what

[01:09:31] you do can be really beneficial. So if it's

[01:09:36] what takes up your whole day, that's where

[01:09:39] things start getting pushed down the line.

[01:09:41] That's where the things that you need to do

[01:09:42] start getting like chopped here and there. And

[01:09:45] all of a sudden you build up the stress around

[01:09:48] these things that you need to do. And if the

[01:09:52] difficult, you know, a lot of times people say

[01:09:53] like, oh, do the difficult thing first. Well,

[01:09:57] if I go like, I really don't want to like clean

[01:09:59] my house today. But like, I got to do it before

[01:10:03] I do my bike ride. Otherwise, like the day

[01:10:04] is totally shot. Well, then I also put my

[01:10:06] entire day cleaning the house because I

[01:10:08] decided to do it. And now I'm so blinded

[01:10:11] by what I have to do that I'll spend six

[01:10:13] hours cleaning my house. I'm totally shot

[01:10:16] for my bike ride. Same thing with coaching.

[01:10:18] Like, I'll just go through and I'll open my

[01:10:20] computer and I'll just be on there until

[01:10:21] like, oh my God, I have to go pick up my

[01:10:23] daughter. Like I have to take care. So I

[01:10:25] started putting it on a calendar of like

[01:10:27] aerobic exercise prior to doing my work.

[01:10:31] And what I found is that like, cool, I do

[01:10:34] that, I have some food and I have a cup

[01:10:36] of coffee and I'm just on set. I'm ready.

[01:10:39] You know, I thought a lot of things. I'm

[01:10:42] able to get a lot of blood moving through

[01:10:43] my brain and I've got energy out and

[01:10:47] move my body and now I can focus. I'm not

[01:10:49] rushing through things. I'm not clicking

[01:10:51] through tabs and my opening stuff. I'm

[01:10:53] just doing my work, setting some

[01:10:55] timers and going like, okay, cool, that's

[01:10:57] enough work. Now I'm gonna go take a

[01:10:58] have a snack or and then like putting

[01:11:00] on a schedule like Thursdays. Clean my

[01:11:03] bathroom room. Like it's cool. Yeah.

[01:11:07] You know, and you think all of a sudden

[01:11:08] you have time for stuff and that

[01:11:10] anxiety goes away. Yeah. And it's just

[01:11:12] by figuring out the process that works

[01:11:14] for you and with with the knowledge of

[01:11:17] okay, like the exercise piece is really

[01:11:20] important for me because that is a

[01:11:22] component of the ADHD and I on the same

[01:11:26] neuropsych evaluation I the clinician

[01:11:30] actually noted ceiling levels. I say

[01:11:32] air quotes because it was an actual

[01:11:33] quote from the the evaluation ceiling

[01:11:35] levels of anxiety. So I can really

[01:11:40] relate and you know when I was racing

[01:11:43] I was working with a sports psychologist

[01:11:44] and I've long worked with a therapist

[01:11:45] and we kind of laughed about it but

[01:11:47] I upon reflection now and with with

[01:11:50] the understanding of learning what ADHD

[01:11:52] is how it works for me and kind of

[01:11:54] figuring out my process too. I've

[01:11:55] recognized I think most of that

[01:11:57] anxiety came as a byproduct of

[01:12:00] exactly what you're describing like

[01:12:02] I'm trying to fit into a mold that

[01:12:04] doesn't work for me and it's causing

[01:12:06] me anxiety because on some level it's

[01:12:08] it's not working for me. So I'm having

[01:12:11] to put in extra effort in order to

[01:12:13] achieve you know what in my mind is

[01:12:16] like a an acceptable level of success

[01:12:19] and who knows where I get that right.

[01:12:21] But so I'm I'm like I'm like I'm

[01:12:24] expecting I know we'll have to

[01:12:28] schedule that one for later but um

[01:12:31] yeah so it's just like it's taking

[01:12:33] so much out of me and at the same

[01:12:36] time I feel like I'm constantly

[01:12:38] behind and I'm not getting done what

[01:12:40] I need to get done and yeah that

[01:12:42] that anxiety was untenable truly

[01:12:44] untenable and that's one of the

[01:12:46] things that you know again just the

[01:12:48] relief you know releasing that

[01:12:50] self-judgment and and learning oh

[01:12:53] okay so this thing doesn't work for

[01:12:56] me and here's why and now that I

[01:12:58] know why I can try this other

[01:13:00] thing and see how that works for

[01:13:01] me and yeah that's the working with

[01:13:03] versus the working against this just

[01:13:04] a total game changer.

[01:13:06] Yeah absolutely you know the other

[01:13:09] thing is I over time have I've

[01:13:11] always I always push my athletes to

[01:13:13] seek some sort of like psychological

[01:13:15] support beyond me and I've stopped

[01:13:20] for the most part asking my clients

[01:13:22] to look for a sports psychologist

[01:13:23] and just going straight to like

[01:13:25] clinical psychologists because I'm

[01:13:27] like for today the problem here

[01:13:29] I'm like thank you for me it's

[01:13:35] just hard being a human so like

[01:13:38] yes yeah it's fortunate the easy

[01:13:40] part like being a person's hard.

[01:13:42] This is the easy part and that's

[01:13:44] why we do it to be honest it's not

[01:13:45] because it's hard because it's easy

[01:13:47] because it's what we're attracted

[01:13:50] to you because we're you know good

[01:13:51] at some level yeah yeah yeah one of

[01:13:54] the things that you said when we

[01:13:55] were exchanging emails prior to

[01:13:57] this was that elite athletes forget

[01:13:59] they are people with people

[01:14:00] problems too so let's dig into

[01:14:02] that one a little bit.

[01:14:05] Where you want to start?

[01:14:12] Yeah it's true from the

[01:14:14] perspective of an athlete you

[01:14:17] want to put these blinders on you

[01:14:18] want to say okay here's my goal

[01:14:20] and I'm just going to do

[01:14:21] everything it takes and I'm

[01:14:23] going to just jettison

[01:14:23] everything in my life but you

[01:14:25] don't you don't jettison

[01:14:26] everything in your life you'd

[01:14:27] like to still there it's in

[01:14:28] tandem it's like riding around

[01:14:30] a tandem and like racing on the

[01:14:32] front and your life is on the

[01:14:33] back and I think like you have

[01:14:37] the choice like who's the

[01:14:38] stoker and who's the captain

[01:14:39] in that way racers choose to have

[01:14:42] racers be the captain and life

[01:14:44] be the stoker and no matter how

[01:14:46] fast you go it's still there

[01:14:47] it's absolutely still there and

[01:14:49] to a degree like you need it

[01:14:51] to pedal you absolutely need to

[01:14:53] pedal if you just expect to

[01:14:54] just like sit there with its

[01:14:55] legs off like you're screwed

[01:14:57] you're just dragging your life

[01:14:59] around and if you work in

[01:15:01] tandem if you help each other

[01:15:03] out in that way and you

[01:15:04] communicate and you you know

[01:15:06] you have the same clear goals

[01:15:08] then and sports just go so much

[01:15:11] better and I think it's easy

[01:15:14] for an athlete to kind of look

[01:15:16] at their support network as

[01:15:18] purely athletic and I think

[01:15:20] this is where I've seen them

[01:15:21] kind of delineation between

[01:15:23] us sports psychologist and a

[01:15:24] clinical psychologist that like

[01:15:26] okay well I'm an athlete and I

[01:15:27] have anxiety or whatever

[01:15:29] therefore I need a

[01:15:29] sports psychologist because I

[01:15:31] am in sports but that's

[01:15:33] probably not true you're

[01:15:35] nervous about this stuff it

[01:15:36] doesn't take a sports

[01:15:37] psychologist to tell you why

[01:15:38] you're nervous on the start

[01:15:39] line like that's easy you're

[01:15:41] nervous because you want to

[01:15:43] do well sure and there are

[01:15:45] a myriad of reasons you know

[01:15:47] why that kind of has crept

[01:15:48] up on you and there's a

[01:15:49] myriad ways of tool to

[01:15:51] deal with that it's actually

[01:15:53] it's important that you're

[01:15:54] nervous yeah to it if you're

[01:15:57] not there you care and

[01:16:00] and your your your heart and

[01:16:01] your body are reacting in the

[01:16:03] way that you want them to do

[01:16:04] like going into a wordness and

[01:16:06] you know I for one was the

[01:16:08] guy with bike racer on the

[01:16:10] front of the tandem and life

[01:16:11] with its beat off the pedals

[01:16:13] in like probably some extra

[01:16:14] life in like a Bob trailer

[01:16:16] behind just like also showing

[01:16:18] that and I'm trying to climb

[01:16:19] up like the steepest mountain

[01:16:21] I could find it's always

[01:16:22] gonna come up to bite you

[01:16:22] but it's always gonna be the

[01:16:24] underlying issue and so if you

[01:16:26] are taking care of your normal

[01:16:27] life the relationships in it

[01:16:30] with your family or your

[01:16:31] partner or your friends and

[01:16:33] you're just pushing those

[01:16:34] things aside all the time

[01:16:35] your taxes

[01:16:37] normal adult things yeah exactly

[01:16:41] you gotta do it even down to

[01:16:43] nutrition I mean we look at

[01:16:44] nutrition as this like end

[01:16:46] all be all in terms of like

[01:16:47] okay I have to eat like a

[01:16:48] bike racer and like yeah you

[01:16:49] do but you're also a

[01:16:50] person on the other end of

[01:16:51] this and you know like yeah

[01:16:53] how many bikers do I know that

[01:16:56] you know are now for bike

[01:16:57] racing having all these hard

[01:16:59] issues or into great issues or

[01:17:01] had to quit by gracing because

[01:17:02] of these issues you do still

[01:17:04] have to be a person on the

[01:17:05] other end of this you know if

[01:17:06] you're lucky you all kind of

[01:17:07] goes well you do make it to

[01:17:08] the other side of bike

[01:17:09] racing you know alive and you

[01:17:11] get to live like a normal life

[01:17:12] but like you also need to

[01:17:13] kind of balance all those

[01:17:15] those kind of former

[01:17:16] expectations of yourself yeah I

[01:17:19] kind of say all that because I

[01:17:20] don't think you should wait

[01:17:21] until the racing is done to

[01:17:24] find the balance I say this

[01:17:25] from experience I'll say it

[01:17:27] because I did it right yeah

[01:17:28] they did it wrong

[01:17:31] and I don't know the answer

[01:17:32] necessarily I don't have the

[01:17:34] answer for it except for what I

[01:17:35] have found is that with the

[01:17:37] people I do have interaction

[01:17:38] with I can you know I can

[01:17:39] point out like hey don't

[01:17:41] forget about this don't

[01:17:42] forget about this right and

[01:17:43] I was really lucky to have

[01:17:44] people like that my like

[01:17:45] we were asked about a

[01:17:46] shout out Brad Huff is like

[01:17:48] an example of this it is an

[01:17:50] incredible mentor to me and

[01:17:52] my bike racing career but

[01:17:54] by freezing was such a small

[01:17:56] part of how he impacted my life

[01:17:58] it still does it's always been

[01:18:00] about being a good person and

[01:18:02] and having a life you know and

[01:18:04] like good life that I wanted to

[01:18:05] live and he found those

[01:18:08] experiences the hard way in a

[01:18:09] lot of ways and you know

[01:18:10] something became easy to have

[01:18:12] still right just like anybody

[01:18:13] yeah but he was willing to

[01:18:14] share those things and it

[01:18:15] made a really big impact on

[01:18:16] how I looked at my life

[01:18:19] you know like okay cool this is

[01:18:20] a problem but it's not the end

[01:18:22] of the world this might seem

[01:18:24] huge but it's not especially

[01:18:26] about injury you know I think

[01:18:28] he he's got into my life when

[01:18:30] I got really injured early on

[01:18:32] in my career and he helped me

[01:18:36] first by helping me resolve

[01:18:38] the injury by getting me to

[01:18:40] the people that could help you

[01:18:42] know by giving me a pathway

[01:18:44] but bigger than that he

[01:18:46] helped me because he taught me

[01:18:48] that this is part of your life

[01:18:50] now this is your this is not an

[01:18:52] injury this is like your child

[01:18:54] that you now have to care for

[01:18:56] and you have to deal with

[01:18:57] forever you have to you do

[01:18:59] have to nurture it and you

[01:19:00] have to figure out how to

[01:19:02] live with it you know whether

[01:19:03] it goes away or it sticks

[01:19:04] around whether you prevent it

[01:19:06] from happening again you now

[01:19:08] have to expand your worldview

[01:19:10] here to include injury or

[01:19:12] depression or whatever it may

[01:19:14] be so that you function on a

[01:19:16] normal working level before

[01:19:19] your athletics get the benefit

[01:19:22] of it is that makes sense

[01:19:23] you know what I'm saying that

[01:19:24] makes total sense yeah I think

[01:19:27] athletes themselves believe

[01:19:29] that they can compartmentalize

[01:19:31] to the extent where they can

[01:19:32] just shut off life and say

[01:19:34] okay now I'm training or now

[01:19:35] I'm racing and I think that

[01:19:37] people who look at athletes

[01:19:39] expect that of them that

[01:19:41] they can shut off life and

[01:19:43] go and train and race but the

[01:19:44] truth is it doesn't matter how

[01:19:47] much you think you are

[01:19:48] compartmentalizing what's

[01:19:50] happening in your relationships

[01:19:52] what's happening with your

[01:19:53] financial security I mean just

[01:19:56] the basics of living life those

[01:19:58] things deeply impact us in

[01:20:00] ways that we can't just shut

[01:20:02] off and put in a box and

[01:20:04] stick it on a shelf I mean to

[01:20:06] an extent you have to do that

[01:20:07] temporarily in a bike race

[01:20:09] because you can't be you know

[01:20:10] you don't want to be thinking

[01:20:11] about what you're having for

[01:20:13] dinner when you're in the

[01:20:13] middle of the bike race although

[01:20:14] how many of us do that we do

[01:20:16] that but like you have to be

[01:20:21] able to focus but that's very

[01:20:22] different and when for me this

[01:20:25] all came to a head at one

[01:20:25] point in my career that led

[01:20:27] to like a really severe bout

[01:20:28] of overtraining because I

[01:20:30] was only accounting for

[01:20:32] training stress when I was

[01:20:33] thinking about my recovery

[01:20:35] and I wasn't thinking about

[01:20:36] life stress because in my

[01:20:37] head I thought I had

[01:20:39] separated them and I thought

[01:20:40] that as long as I separated

[01:20:42] it in my mind or I was

[01:20:43] telling myself they were

[01:20:44] separate that they would be

[01:20:45] separate but they weren't and

[01:20:47] over a long period of time

[01:20:48] that just built up because I

[01:20:49] had a lot of life stress

[01:20:51] that was piling on to the

[01:20:52] training stress and I was

[01:20:53] only building in recovery in

[01:20:55] my training plan that

[01:20:56] accounted for the training

[01:20:57] stress and so I didn't have

[01:21:00] the emotional support support

[01:21:01] the recovery I wasn't balancing

[01:21:04] that complete life

[01:21:06] allostatic load I was only

[01:21:08] accounting for the training

[01:21:09] stress and it I learned

[01:21:12] that lesson the hard way I

[01:21:13] mean it was it could have been

[01:21:15] career ending it wasn't

[01:21:16] thankfully but yeah it was

[01:21:18] it was really really hard

[01:21:20] and I remember at the time

[01:21:22] feeling somewhat disappointed

[01:21:23] in myself like I should be

[01:21:25] able to handle all of this

[01:21:26] if I were a better athlete

[01:21:28] I could compartmentalize

[01:21:29] better but going through

[01:21:31] that and coming out the

[01:21:31] other side of it I realized

[01:21:33] that that wasn't realistic

[01:21:34] expectation of myself and I

[01:21:36] think that I was able to

[01:21:38] carry that lesson into the

[01:21:39] last maybe four or five years

[01:21:41] of my career which I was

[01:21:42] fortunate for that because I

[01:21:43] was able to start thinking

[01:21:45] about that in a different way

[01:21:47] yeah what again not that it

[01:21:48] was easy and even having

[01:21:49] that realization doesn't

[01:21:50] make it so that I can do it

[01:21:52] like that right it's so much

[01:21:53] easier said than done

[01:21:55] yeah yeah 100% I mean talk

[01:21:57] with athletes all the time

[01:21:58] about what does recovery

[01:22:00] look like and I think

[01:22:02] you know you put an hour

[01:22:03] hour and a half recovery

[01:22:04] right on the schedule

[01:22:05] which is pretty standard

[01:22:06] deal right okay well what's

[01:22:08] what's easy enough and like

[01:22:09] should I do it or not

[01:22:10] it's like cool do you have

[01:22:10] stuff to do are you stressed

[01:22:11] out like is this going to add

[01:22:13] stress to you like don't do it

[01:22:15] you know it's the same thing

[01:22:16] with other things yeah

[01:22:17] you know training is a way

[01:22:18] like you can say like this

[01:22:19] is this is the training that

[01:22:21] you need in theory

[01:22:23] this training should get

[01:22:25] you going in the right

[01:22:26] direction for what you want

[01:22:27] to do you know but if

[01:22:29] you're not taking your kind

[01:22:30] of external loads into that

[01:22:31] then it really doesn't

[01:22:32] make any sense it's why

[01:22:34] I don't use I don't

[01:22:36] necessarily use

[01:22:38] metrics in like training

[01:22:40] beats for example

[01:22:41] because

[01:22:42] a there's never good enough

[01:22:43] data and be it

[01:22:45] leaves out 50% of what I

[01:22:47] need to know

[01:22:48] and that's why I use

[01:22:49] comments and I use

[01:22:50] phone calls to really

[01:22:52] make decisions

[01:22:54] you know I ask athletes

[01:22:55] to make comments and

[01:22:56] you know use the little

[01:22:58] smiley face and frowny

[01:22:59] face and RPA thing

[01:23:01] but then what I really

[01:23:02] make the decision off of

[01:23:03] is the conversation

[01:23:04] afterwards we're asking

[01:23:06] what they mean by it

[01:23:08] and we put a better picture

[01:23:09] together

[01:23:10] and it often changes

[01:23:12] the perception for both

[01:23:14] of us

[01:23:15] right I think that's

[01:23:16] that's where it kind of

[01:23:17] comes to is like

[01:23:18] your support network

[01:23:20] should help change

[01:23:22] your perception of

[01:23:24] what is going on

[01:23:25] right like without help

[01:23:26] you prioritize things

[01:23:28] rather than just give

[01:23:29] you work

[01:23:32] yeah that's

[01:23:33] that's all we want

[01:23:34] as athletes is like just

[01:23:35] give me work to do

[01:23:37] I'll do the work

[01:23:40] that part's easy yeah

[01:23:43] Steven just give me the

[01:23:44] perfect training plan

[01:23:45] that's going to make me the

[01:23:46] perfect athlete and I'll do it

[01:23:47] and we'll be good right

[01:23:48] yeah yeah yeah

[01:23:49] you know and I think this

[01:23:50] comes over the

[01:23:52] overarching thing of like

[01:23:53] everybody wants something

[01:23:54] to do nobody wants you to

[01:23:55] take something off the plate

[01:23:56] that's a hard thing to get

[01:23:58] over too it's just like

[01:23:59] yeah I know you're telling

[01:24:00] me that you can handle this

[01:24:01] other thing I know you're

[01:24:02] telling me gym work

[01:24:03] I know you're telling me

[01:24:04] you need this thing for like

[01:24:05] you can't fit in a

[01:24:07] hour phone call

[01:24:08] we could do a

[01:24:08] you know clinical psychologist

[01:24:10] and like do you

[01:24:11] do you have more

[01:24:13] do you have a bad one so

[01:24:14] that's like

[01:24:17] that is a really

[01:24:18] really good point

[01:24:21] and you know as you're

[01:24:22] describing that data

[01:24:23] that you can get I mean

[01:24:25] the data is so exciting

[01:24:26] and it's very powerful

[01:24:28] and we can get so much out

[01:24:29] of it but I think

[01:24:30] it's so important

[01:24:32] not to forget

[01:24:33] the context of the data

[01:24:35] and what you're describing

[01:24:36] listening to your athletes

[01:24:38] actually speak to you

[01:24:39] about what they mean about

[01:24:40] the comments you know two

[01:24:41] layers even removed from that

[01:24:42] is it's not just about

[01:24:45] you know me being able to

[01:24:46] put out a certain wattage

[01:24:47] on one day is going to mean

[01:24:49] something really different

[01:24:50] than me putting out that

[01:24:51] exact same wattage

[01:24:52] in the exact same interval

[01:24:53] set on a different day

[01:24:55] depending on

[01:24:56] you know am I sick

[01:24:58] is there something really

[01:24:59] stressful going on my life

[01:25:00] am I just flying that day

[01:25:01] because I'm really excited

[01:25:03] about some other thing

[01:25:03] I mean

[01:25:04] right the context matters

[01:25:06] so much yeah

[01:25:07] yeah a question I often ask is

[01:25:09] like are you letting this

[01:25:10] happen to you

[01:25:11] in the way of like

[01:25:13] you know especially around races

[01:25:15] right like races are really

[01:25:16] big one especially like

[01:25:17] cycling cross races were

[01:25:18] just so many things

[01:25:19] go wrong and

[01:25:20] and I often hear like

[01:25:21] well so and so did this

[01:25:23] and then this happened

[01:25:24] and then this happened

[01:25:25] but

[01:25:25] okay cool so what did you do

[01:25:27] right like there's a big

[01:25:28] difference between being

[01:25:29] an active participant

[01:25:30] and what you're doing

[01:25:31] and being passive

[01:25:33] participant

[01:25:34] and it's the same thing with

[01:25:35] training like I went out

[01:25:36] and try to do these intervals

[01:25:38] and like the first one sucked

[01:25:39] so bad

[01:25:41] I just went home

[01:25:42] like okay did you try to bump

[01:25:44] the power down

[01:25:45] did you like

[01:25:47] did you take a break

[01:25:48] did you assess

[01:25:49] like what what did you do here

[01:25:51] you know did you just hammer

[01:25:52] through and it was just

[01:25:53] terrible

[01:25:55] and how does that affect

[01:25:56] the rest of your day

[01:25:57] and everything

[01:25:57] moving forward right

[01:25:58] when you're an active

[01:25:59] participant of things

[01:26:00] and you're empowered

[01:26:02] to do that

[01:26:03] as an athlete

[01:26:05] then

[01:26:06] you

[01:26:07] get to

[01:26:09] help change the outcome

[01:26:10] of any given situation

[01:26:12] and

[01:26:13] I think that's

[01:26:14] that's what I look for

[01:26:15] and like success

[01:26:16] in an athlete

[01:26:17] when I look at an athlete

[01:26:18] I think like how

[01:26:19] how have I helped them

[01:26:20] be successful

[01:26:22] if they can make decisions

[01:26:23] on their own

[01:26:24] that have a positive impact

[01:26:25] on what they're doing

[01:26:26] and if that's like

[01:26:27] just going home

[01:26:29] if that's like

[01:26:29] I just couldn't

[01:26:31] I tried these three things

[01:26:32] to like get this thing

[01:26:32] out of my head and I couldn't do it

[01:26:34] and I just didn't want to do the

[01:26:34] intervals like cool

[01:26:35] today's just not the day

[01:26:37] if that's actually

[01:26:39] let's change things up

[01:26:40] you know there's no shame in that

[01:26:41] this stuff happened

[01:26:43] it sounds like

[01:26:43] this is something that we need

[01:26:44] to put some effort into

[01:26:45] and

[01:26:46] where there's the ones that kind

[01:26:47] of power through everything

[01:26:48] and and what

[01:26:49] what happens all

[01:26:51] you know it's like cool

[01:26:51] was that productive or not

[01:26:53] so

[01:26:54] if you can teach someone to

[01:26:56] for yourself

[01:26:57] to be an active participant

[01:26:59] for what you're doing

[01:26:59] and not necessarily let those

[01:27:01] things just happen to you

[01:27:02] and then that's the outcome

[01:27:04] then yeah

[01:27:05] you know your whole world

[01:27:06] changes in that way

[01:27:07] yeah I feel like

[01:27:08] there's two things that are so

[01:27:09] hard to learn and they're

[01:27:10] they're two sides of the same coin

[01:27:12] one is

[01:27:14] I don't know when I

[01:27:14] when I got started

[01:27:15] I felt like

[01:27:16] I could control pretty much

[01:27:17] everything right

[01:27:18] and if I just worked hard

[01:27:20] then I would get results

[01:27:22] and then you have that

[01:27:23] really tough life lesson

[01:27:24] of like okay I'm doing all of

[01:27:25] the things

[01:27:26] and

[01:27:27] you know it's not

[01:27:28] working out the way that it

[01:27:29] used to you for me like why

[01:27:31] and then you start to realize

[01:27:32] that oh there's actually

[01:27:33] a lot of things that are not

[01:27:34] within my control

[01:27:36] and learning to accept that

[01:27:37] is really difficult

[01:27:38] but then on the other side

[01:27:38] of the same coin is exactly

[01:27:40] what you're describing

[01:27:41] okay yes there are a lot of

[01:27:42] things that are beyond your

[01:27:43] control

[01:27:44] but are you

[01:27:46] maybe over defining that

[01:27:47] are there things that are

[01:27:48] perhaps within your control

[01:27:49] that you haven't

[01:27:51] taken the time to problem

[01:27:52] solve or be proactive

[01:27:54] about and maybe

[01:27:55] success looks different

[01:27:56] than you think it does

[01:27:57] and there's a different path

[01:27:59] that you can take

[01:27:59] and man that agency

[01:28:02] is so important

[01:28:03] right and I think it comes

[01:28:05] I think there's one more

[01:28:06] question you have to ask

[01:28:08] when you get to that point

[01:28:09] of like okay I'm going to

[01:28:10] control all the controllables

[01:28:12] okay cool so you're willing

[01:28:13] to do that

[01:28:15] you have the where it's

[01:28:16] all to do it like you

[01:28:17] have figured out the pathways

[01:28:18] to control these things

[01:28:19] like you're

[01:28:20] you know a resourceful

[01:28:21] athlete cool now are you

[01:28:22] afraid to fail doing that

[01:28:23] like

[01:28:24] are you scared of failing

[01:28:25] like are you putting

[01:28:27] all this on the line

[01:28:27] and like if you fail it

[01:28:28] that's it because like

[01:28:30] the thing that we do the

[01:28:32] least amount of time

[01:28:34] in sports is win

[01:28:36] and be perfect

[01:28:38] that's the thing that we do

[01:28:38] the office of these

[01:28:39] especially when it comes

[01:28:40] to competition

[01:28:41] you know you can be

[01:28:42] perfect and train

[01:28:43] that is a translator

[01:28:44] racing

[01:28:45] you can miss all sorts

[01:28:45] of things

[01:28:46] so you need to be able

[01:28:48] to do all that

[01:28:49] and fail

[01:28:51] and come back to it

[01:28:52] and reassess

[01:28:53] and then come back

[01:28:54] and then fail

[01:28:55] or succeed

[01:28:56] and then

[01:28:57] have success

[01:28:58] and then fail

[01:28:59] right has to be like

[01:29:00] failure has to be part

[01:29:02] of your process

[01:29:03] yeah kind of welcome

[01:29:04] and almost

[01:29:05] how did you

[01:29:06] how did you figure out

[01:29:07] how to do that

[01:29:13] I think it took a long time

[01:29:14] you know

[01:29:15] I think

[01:29:17] I started to get to the point

[01:29:18] where failure

[01:29:19] wasn't really an option

[01:29:21] you know I think I was

[01:29:22] fortunate

[01:29:24] that I kind of

[01:29:25] really made my way through

[01:29:26] the ranks

[01:29:27] and I kind of

[01:29:28] just by default

[01:29:29] I'm not even

[01:29:30] realizing I could do it

[01:29:32] I kind of ran out

[01:29:33] every category

[01:29:34] of like okay I win

[01:29:35] win win

[01:29:36] okay they kick me out

[01:29:37] and have to go back

[01:29:37] to this thing

[01:29:38] and now I'm like driven

[01:29:39] to like do that right

[01:29:40] but then I got to the point

[01:29:41] where it was like

[01:29:42] okay

[01:29:43] I kind of ran out

[01:29:44] of steam with that

[01:29:45] you know domestically

[01:29:46] for a little while

[01:29:47] where it was just like

[01:29:48] I was just running

[01:29:49] a lot of races

[01:29:49] it was really cool

[01:29:50] it was not a bad problem

[01:29:51] right

[01:29:52] but then I wasn't

[01:29:54] and I still had to say

[01:29:55] mindset

[01:29:55] whatever reasons

[01:29:56] you know

[01:29:57] injury and sickness

[01:29:58] and all these other things

[01:30:00] you know there was

[01:30:00] there was 2000

[01:30:02] 2018

[01:30:03] at one nationals in January

[01:30:05] at one national again

[01:30:06] in December

[01:30:06] so two times in one year

[01:30:08] and then 2018

[01:30:10] I went to Florida

[01:30:10] did all this training

[01:30:11] in the summer

[01:30:12] and it was like

[01:30:13] the hottest training

[01:30:14] I'd ever done

[01:30:14] it was like August

[01:30:15] July and August down there

[01:30:17] and

[01:30:18] I just did so much training

[01:30:20] that I came into the season

[01:30:21] and I was like

[01:30:22] an absolute rocket ship

[01:30:24] like I was sharp

[01:30:26] I was just so strong

[01:30:28] I was like

[01:30:28] this is

[01:30:29] I could go like

[01:30:31] top five

[01:30:32] of the like

[01:30:33] world championships

[01:30:34] with this

[01:30:34] just like

[01:30:35] this is unreal

[01:30:35] I've never had this before

[01:30:36] in my life

[01:30:37] I think I won every single race

[01:30:38] through the US

[01:30:40] domestic season

[01:30:41] up until

[01:30:41] you know

[01:30:42] this is pretty short period

[01:30:43] until

[01:30:44] some of like

[01:30:45] you know

[01:30:45] three or four

[01:30:46] five races

[01:30:48] weekends

[01:30:48] until

[01:30:49] the first World Cup

[01:30:51] in Waterloo

[01:30:52] and

[01:30:53] second or third

[01:30:55] I was one, two, three

[01:30:56] five turns in

[01:30:58] run this off camber

[01:30:59] large Van Der Haar

[01:31:00] like slides out in front of me

[01:31:01] I hit him

[01:31:02] I had launched down like

[01:31:03] ten feet down the track

[01:31:05] down this hill

[01:31:06] and I land on my back

[01:31:07] and I break my sternum

[01:31:10] and

[01:31:11] that

[01:31:12] like breaking ribs sucks

[01:31:15] it's like breaking

[01:31:16] all of your ribs at once

[01:31:17] when you break a sternum

[01:31:18] it's like

[01:31:18] all of them

[01:31:19] and

[01:31:20] there was nothing I could do

[01:31:22] about it

[01:31:22] and it just took so long

[01:31:24] and then

[01:31:25] I finally got back

[01:31:26] a little bit of shape

[01:31:27] and

[01:31:28] I won the first day

[01:31:30] at Pan Ams

[01:31:31] that you know

[01:31:31] the C2 day

[01:31:32] at Pan Ams

[01:31:33] the day before

[01:31:34] I launched off the front

[01:31:36] for an attack

[01:31:36] in the

[01:31:37] in Pan Ams

[01:31:37] and

[01:31:38] this is actually like

[01:31:39] if not

[01:31:40] you're making podiums

[01:31:41] and

[01:31:42] then I crash

[01:31:43] spraying my ankle

[01:31:43] got a concussion

[01:31:44] broke another rib

[01:31:46] and

[01:31:47] from then on out

[01:31:48] it was just really difficult

[01:31:49] to

[01:31:51] I still had the same ideas

[01:31:53] of success in my head

[01:31:54] of like

[01:31:54] okay well

[01:31:55] if I'm not winning a race

[01:31:57] it's not success

[01:31:58] okay but

[01:31:59] I like can't even get on a podium

[01:32:01] I can like

[01:32:01] I'm barely top tenning

[01:32:03] these races right now

[01:32:04] because

[01:32:04] I went from

[01:32:05] owning all the points

[01:32:06] to not getting any points

[01:32:08] but I didn't break that mindset

[01:32:10] of

[01:32:10] when at all cross

[01:32:11] kind of scenario

[01:32:12] and so I think it

[01:32:13] it was helpful to have somebody

[01:32:15] my coach

[01:32:16] you know just saying

[01:32:17] like look

[01:32:18] that's not you anymore

[01:32:20] it may never

[01:32:21] be you again

[01:32:22] potentially

[01:32:23] you have to make a choice

[01:32:24] of like

[01:32:25] do you accept where you're at

[01:32:27] and slow down

[01:32:28] and focus on recovery

[01:32:30] as opposed to getting directly

[01:32:31] back to where you were

[01:32:33] or

[01:32:34] if you just take some time with us

[01:32:35] if you just accept where you're at

[01:32:36] and just see it as the process

[01:32:37] and just say like

[01:32:39] hard stop

[01:32:41] reassess

[01:32:42] here you are

[01:32:43] now

[01:32:44] take all those things that

[01:32:45] you made

[01:32:47] successful in first place

[01:32:48] and then reapply them here

[01:32:49] you're just moving the goalpost

[01:32:51] a little bit

[01:32:52] the idea that you've already been there

[01:32:55] right the fact that you've already been there

[01:32:58] means that

[01:32:59] in theory

[01:33:00] you have a shorter

[01:33:02] path to get back to that point

[01:33:04] if you are

[01:33:06] you know successful in how you do this

[01:33:08] just because you've learned all those lessons

[01:33:09] but

[01:33:10] yeah

[01:33:11] as I think it's difficult for

[01:33:13] for someone who has been at that level to

[01:33:16] be able to break that mindset

[01:33:17] and just

[01:33:18] just take the

[01:33:19] bit out of their teeth

[01:33:20] and just for a second

[01:33:21] and relax

[01:33:22] and let themselves heal

[01:33:23] and yeah

[01:33:25] yeah

[01:33:26] and so even in my last year of racing

[01:33:28] I was so unhappy

[01:33:29] with my results

[01:33:31] you know I was able to come back at one national

[01:33:33] that year

[01:33:33] barely did any racing

[01:33:34] and so on

[01:33:35] by just

[01:33:35] peer determination

[01:33:37] I won national that year

[01:33:38] but you know that was kind of the last one

[01:33:39] and my results

[01:33:40] went downhill from there

[01:33:42] and a lot of it was just because like

[01:33:43] every hit

[01:33:44] was so much more psychologically damaging

[01:33:46] to me because I just wouldn't let that go

[01:33:48] yeah

[01:33:49] that

[01:33:50] I really wish that I could

[01:33:51] I really wish that I could have let that go

[01:33:53] in the

[01:33:54] the time that I had

[01:33:55] yeah that's a

[01:33:56] that's a really really tough one

[01:33:57] and

[01:33:58] I think that there's so much

[01:34:00] there's so much that comes with that

[01:34:01] when I had that concussion

[01:34:02] I worked with a specialist who

[01:34:04] he works with a lot of athletes like he

[01:34:06] he works with

[01:34:07] the Yankees

[01:34:08] and

[01:34:09] like the

[01:34:09] pro rodeo circuit

[01:34:10] and so he has seen

[01:34:12] some serious stuff

[01:34:13] and he

[01:34:13] he's used to dealing with

[01:34:14] the mentality

[01:34:16] yeah a lot of smash heads

[01:34:18] and

[01:34:18] one of the things he told me at the beginning

[01:34:21] which really struck me was

[01:34:23] he said the hardest thing to heal

[01:34:24] about a concussion is

[01:34:25] the PTSD

[01:34:27] and I was like

[01:34:28] what

[01:34:30] like

[01:34:31] I mean I fell off my bike and I

[01:34:32] you know

[01:34:33] I fell off my bike

[01:34:34] I mean

[01:34:35] where's the PTSD in that

[01:34:36] and he was like no it was a trauma

[01:34:37] that was a legitimate trauma

[01:34:40] and

[01:34:40] I kind of stopped

[01:34:42] and I started

[01:34:43] you know doing the rewind tape

[01:34:44] you know like record scratch

[01:34:45] we rewind

[01:34:46] and then like the montage

[01:34:47] of my whole career flashed

[01:34:48] before my eyes and I thought

[01:34:51] OK

[01:34:52] if that was trauma

[01:34:53] then

[01:34:54] what about this whole

[01:34:56] this whole

[01:34:58] 12 years of all of this other stuff

[01:35:00] and

[01:35:01] what I realized was part of

[01:35:03] I ended up retiring that year

[01:35:05] not

[01:35:05] the concussion sort of was

[01:35:06] I had planned on retiring that

[01:35:08] season the concussion sort of accelerated

[01:35:09] that timeline

[01:35:10] but I started to

[01:35:11] work with my therapist specifically

[01:35:13] on the PTSD component

[01:35:14] which was super interesting

[01:35:15] and I'm so grateful

[01:35:17] that that actually happened

[01:35:18] because I think

[01:35:19] it helped me process something

[01:35:20] that I would have just carried with me

[01:35:22] into the next chapter

[01:35:23] if I hadn't had that

[01:35:24] like hard stop that said

[01:35:25] OK let's

[01:35:26] let's sit down and like really confront

[01:35:28] deal with this

[01:35:29] and I think

[01:35:30] when I look back on my career now

[01:35:32] with the understanding that I have now

[01:35:34] I can see how

[01:35:36] every injury

[01:35:37] every setback

[01:35:39] kind of started to chip away

[01:35:40] because I wasn't

[01:35:41] and it wasn't just about processing the trauma

[01:35:43] I think that was part of it

[01:35:45] but it just started to accumulate

[01:35:46] in a way because whether I was processing

[01:35:48] the trauma or not

[01:35:49] or even just the psychological fallout

[01:35:51] of

[01:35:52] you know your body not doing what you want it to do

[01:35:55] and not

[01:35:56] you know you're doing the same things that you used to do

[01:35:58] that used to get you results

[01:35:59] and used to get you race wins

[01:36:00] and it's not working anymore

[01:36:02] and

[01:36:03] it erodes

[01:36:04] your confidence

[01:36:05] and it erodes

[01:36:05] a sense of

[01:36:07] I don't know

[01:36:08] it erodes agency

[01:36:09] in a sense of self

[01:36:10] in a way that

[01:36:12] is really really hard to come back from

[01:36:15] just really hard to come back from

[01:36:16] not impossible

[01:36:18] but

[01:36:18] it takes so much focus work to do that

[01:36:21] that when you're in the middle of a career like that

[01:36:23] it just doesn't feel like you have the time

[01:36:24] to devote to that kind of work

[01:36:26] nor would you even necessarily know that that's something that you

[01:36:29] might want to do

[01:36:30] absolutely

[01:36:30] I mean

[01:36:31] that you're getting at the idea that we're so tied up

[01:36:34] or

[01:36:34] our athletics and our self-worth

[01:36:36] are so tied together

[01:36:38] that

[01:36:39] yes

[01:36:40] they're

[01:36:40] inseparable to a degree

[01:36:42] and I think this is where

[01:36:43] this is where being a human on a biker

[01:36:45] is here

[01:36:45] at the same time

[01:36:46] have to exist well

[01:36:48] because

[01:36:49] it's okay

[01:36:51] and probably a good thing to want to

[01:36:54] succeed at what you want to do

[01:36:55] right

[01:36:55] it's a very good thing

[01:36:57] but

[01:36:58] is doing good at something

[01:37:00] what makes you who you are

[01:37:02] or is it just a trait

[01:37:03] you know as a part of who you are

[01:37:05] and

[01:37:06] I think for me it was really difficult to

[01:37:08] detangle

[01:37:10] those two things because I

[01:37:12] didn't

[01:37:13] have a life outside of my crazy

[01:37:15] that was it

[01:37:16] I devoted everything to it

[01:37:17] and therefore

[01:37:18] it's a really tricky

[01:37:19] thing to navigate when you do have an athlete that just wants like racing

[01:37:23] that just wants to be a good bike racer

[01:37:24] okay cool

[01:37:25] well

[01:37:26] you have to go

[01:37:27] this is gonna end

[01:37:28] yeah

[01:37:28] the reason why

[01:37:30] those who do really well

[01:37:31] and end on their own terms

[01:37:33] are legends

[01:37:34] is because

[01:37:34] there's very few of them

[01:37:40] and the likelihood it's gonna be you

[01:37:42] sorry

[01:37:42] small

[01:37:44] very small

[01:37:46] very small

[01:37:47] and even those people struggle

[01:37:48] you know struggle with self worth

[01:37:50] everybody struggles with self worth

[01:37:51] when they

[01:37:52] when they kind of come down to it

[01:37:53] I mean

[01:37:54] it's just such a rare

[01:37:55] example of an athlete that does

[01:37:57] so well

[01:37:58] then steps away from it to go do something else

[01:38:00] because that's

[01:38:00] you know that's the real thing

[01:38:02] that's the real passion

[01:38:03] yeah

[01:38:03] it exists but it's very rare

[01:38:05] so yeah

[01:38:05] an injury like that

[01:38:07] a TBI

[01:38:08] or

[01:38:08] life altering injury

[01:38:10] challenges

[01:38:11] your perception of your self worth

[01:38:13] it all of a sudden takes away

[01:38:15] your ability in your agency

[01:38:17] and how

[01:38:18] you build yourself

[01:38:19] or how you put yourself up

[01:38:20] out of the people

[01:38:21] and what makes you

[01:38:22] quote good

[01:38:23] and other people's eyes

[01:38:25] even time has absolutely flown by

[01:38:27] I

[01:38:27] I mean I've got more notes here

[01:38:29] and I don't know

[01:38:30] I

[01:38:30] I think we need to do like three more episodes together

[01:38:33] for it

[01:38:34] I'm down

[01:38:35] you got me

[01:38:37] this has been so much fun Steven

[01:38:39] thank you very much for taking the time today

[01:38:40] I think people are going to get so much out of this conversation

[01:38:43] and your insights

[01:38:44] yeah

[01:38:45] it's my pleasure

[01:38:46] I really I really appreciate it

[01:38:47] I you know I love these long conversations

[01:38:49] and

[01:38:50] I've always loved the conversation

[01:38:51] that you and I have in general

[01:38:53] so I was excited

[01:38:54] I was excited to get the message

[01:38:55] and I'm happy to be on my H.I.

[01:38:57] yeah

[01:38:58] oh likewise

[01:38:59] and thank you so much Steven

[01:39:02] I had so much fun

[01:39:03] talking about all of this with Steven

[01:39:05] I especially love his take

[01:39:06] on leading not with ego

[01:39:07] but with heart and connection

[01:39:09] even when it comes to high stakes competitive arenas

[01:39:12] while these are things I often strive to do myself

[01:39:14] this conversation with Steven

[01:39:16] left me feeling even more inspired

[01:39:18] to proactively build relationships and community

[01:39:21] I hope you feel empowered to step into your own agency

[01:39:24] and prioritize connection in your life as well

[01:39:27] thank you for joining us for today's episode

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[01:39:34] the be a good wheel podcast is produced by our wizard behind the curtain

[01:39:38] Maxine Filivong

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