Belonging, Empathy, and the Surprising Ease of Building Community with Marley Blonsky

[00:00:00] I think of it like from an opportunity standpoint, like the it is not a scarcity game. Like the the

[00:00:07] pie of cycling or the pizza of cycling is like absolutely huge and I don't care why you're riding

[00:00:14] a bike. I mean that sounds bad but you know if you're riding your e-bike to commute to work or

[00:00:19] you're riding a mountain bike or you're riding you know whatever it might be there are so many

[00:00:23] ways to ride a bike that like my whole goal is to do it or ensure that you're you can do it safely

[00:00:31] and with the right equipment. And I think a lot of us in the cycling world are coming from a

[00:00:36] scarcity mindset of like oh no but bikes are only a good thing you know like they're a climate

[00:00:42] answer, they're a community answer like they solve so many challenges that like I don't know I think

[00:00:48] those of us that find ourselves being like oh no there's another inclusive group are they

[00:00:53] gonna step on my toes like no not at all like if anything let's like let's dance together and step

[00:00:59] on each other's toes and invite more people to the dance it's a really messy metaphor but you know

[00:01:04] what I mean like more people being included is not a bad thing in any way shape or form.

[00:01:10] That's co-founder of All Bodies On Bikes Marlee Blonsky on why including more people

[00:01:15] in cycling is a good thing, a net gain rather than a risk to existing communities

[00:01:20] and stakeholders. And she would know All Bodies On Bikes is a movement to create and foster a

[00:01:25] size inclusive bike community. Marlee has leveraged her business savvy, her personal experience in

[00:01:30] cycling and her knack for bringing people together to become a respected and influential

[00:01:34] leader not only for body size inclusion in cycling but also for more expansive inclusion

[00:01:39] in cycling in general. As someone who has lived and breathed difficult conversations in countless

[00:01:44] contexts she shares some deep wisdom on belonging, community and how to engage in the tough

[00:01:50] conversations that can pave the way to both. You're listening to the Be a Good Wheel podcast

[00:01:55] the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel by digging into scientific research

[00:01:59] and personal stories about human potential and performance. I'm your host Amber Pierce.

[00:02:07] Today we welcome to the show Marlee Blonsky a fat adventure cyclist co-founder of All

[00:02:12] Bodies On Bikes and an advocate for size inclusion and empowerment in the cycling community.

[00:02:17] Recently named to the Escape Collective's top 50 most influential people in American cycling

[00:02:22] her story is a testament to reinvention. Marlee was born in Dallas, Texas and later moved to

[00:02:28] the state of Washington where her passion for adventure truly took root. As a young

[00:02:32] professional in Seattle navigating a corporate career in environmental sustainability Marlee

[00:02:37] found solace in peddling a bike. On the heels of a devastating divorce Marlee began commuting by

[00:02:43] bike for work and what began as an escape from traffic and heartbreak soon blossomed into a lifelong

[00:02:48] love affair with cycling. As she explored this newfound joy on the bike she became increasingly

[00:02:54] frustrated by the lack of size inclusive gear in the cycling industry. After discovering that

[00:02:59] others shared her concerns she embarked on a mission to champion inclusivity in the cycling

[00:03:04] industry for cyclists of all sizes especially those in bigger bodies. From co-founding All Bodies On

[00:03:10] Bikes to gracing the screen in the Shimano film All Bodies On Bikes Marlee's advocacy has established

[00:03:16] her as a respected leader in the bike industry and ignited a movement that changes lives in a

[00:03:21] very real way. When she isn't traveling the country to build belonging and cycling through

[00:03:26] her work with events promoters and brands she advocates for active transportation in her

[00:03:31] own backyard. Marlee now lives in Bentonville Arkansas a mecca for recreational cycling supported

[00:03:37] in large part by the richest family in America the Waltons a dynamic which as you'll hear makes

[00:03:43] for an interesting twist when it comes to bike advocacy she also consults on size inclusion

[00:03:49] and diversity for major corporations extending her impact well beyond the bike.

[00:03:54] Marlee and I spoke back in January and our conversation explores the importance of size

[00:03:58] inclusion what it takes to build community and what makes a community different from a group.

[00:04:04] Marlee offers guidance on how to navigate difficult conversations why she leads with

[00:04:08] humility and curiosity the importance of understanding intent versus impact in communication

[00:04:14] she shares tips on how you can take action to create real change and why something as simple as

[00:04:19] t-shirt sizes can make a difference she also teases some exciting new projects

[00:04:25] as Marlee shares in our conversation it can be challenging to do this work and make a living

[00:04:30] so we want to take a moment and thank the sponsors and brands who support her

[00:04:34] Cannondale Shimano Shredley ride with GPS twisted spoke CBD and Osprey packs

[00:04:41] this one is a lot of fun and full of tips you can begin to use in your own life right away

[00:04:46] if you ever struggle to navigate difficult conversations or wonder how you can make

[00:04:50] a difference in the world when you're not an influencer you're in the right place

[00:04:53] I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did it is my absolute pleasure today to welcome

[00:04:59] to the podcast a woman who has been named one of the 50 most influential people in American cycling

[00:05:06] right now Marlee Blonsky thank you so much for joining us on the show today thanks for having

[00:05:11] me Amber yeah it's so good to be able to talk to you and I've been really looking forward to

[00:05:14] this conversation for a long time and one of the things I love to ask people is what initially

[00:05:20] drew them to the bike so I want to start there with you what was it that brought you to the bike at

[00:05:24] the beginning yeah so my bike story kind of has two parts I loved riding my bike as a kid

[00:05:30] it was just you know play and fun and I rode it to and from school but that didn't get on

[00:05:35] the bike from I don't know age 14 to probably 26 or 27 and so when I talk about you know

[00:05:41] getting back on the bike I'm talking about my adult years because there really wasn't

[00:05:45] any continuity there at all but honestly it was practicality and kind of looking for a sense

[00:05:52] of belonging so I was living in Seattle and I had gotten divorced kind of this earth shattering

[00:05:59] awful breakup and I found myself living in a really really dense part of the city I was on

[00:06:04] Capitol Hill which if you're familiar with Seattle it's kind of at least it used to be

[00:06:07] like the gayborhood you know lots of young folks living there and just having a car did

[00:06:12] not make sense and so I was taking the bus to and from work which was silly because it was less than

[00:06:19] three miles and it took like 45 minutes got a love public transit right and I just seeing all

[00:06:24] these people riding bikes like zooming past and it was like a I'm wasting far too much time on

[00:06:30] this bus every day but also like the people I wanted to hang out with and be around and date

[00:06:36] and just kind of like try and reinvent myself we're all riding bikes so that's what drew me

[00:06:41] back into it initially and it didn't quite work out I mean yes it worked out very very well in a

[00:06:47] lot of ways but not everything you know like I'm still single I've dated lots of cyclists

[00:06:56] but does that count as a win? I mean I've had a lot of wins there but yeah I mean initially

[00:07:06] it was honestly just practicality and sick of wasting time on the bus in Seattle

[00:07:11] I love it I love it so my next question was going to be is that the same thing that has

[00:07:15] captured heart and kept you in it and I feel like the answer that might be no but I want to

[00:07:21] I mean the desire to be in community drives almost everything I do in this life

[00:07:29] and so I think that that still holds very very strong you know to have a group of people

[00:07:35] that I share common values with and go on adventures with and kind of build that

[00:07:39] so that keeps me going today I live in Bentonville Arkansas now which is a very car-centric place

[00:07:44] you know no matter what everybody tells you like it's hard to live here without a car and so

[00:07:49] kind of that riding for transportation and utility has changed a little bit and I miss it so much

[00:07:55] you know I'll still you know go to the coffee shop on my bike or take my cargo bike to go grocery

[00:08:00] shopping but the grocery store is like two blocks away if that makes sense yeah yeah I feel

[00:08:05] that it's interesting I've heard a lot about Bendville and one of your interviews you mentioned

[00:08:09] that there is a lot of bike infrastructure but it's oriented more toward recreational riding

[00:08:14] not specifically the utility of commuting in transport and that's a real challenge in rural

[00:08:20] more I mean I live in a more rural area of Connecticut so I don't know and I haven't

[00:08:24] been to Bentonville so I don't want to draw comparisons that are not accurate but

[00:08:29] yeah if you found that to be I mean as an individual it's a challenge but

[00:08:33] do you are you involved in advocacy for yeah yeah I am I think there's a part of me that doesn't know

[00:08:39] how not to be involved especially when I see a challenge like honestly active transportation

[00:08:44] in Bentonville is a huge opportunity and challenge and I will say you know even in the

[00:08:50] short time I've lived here almost two years they've opened two bike lanes like protected

[00:08:54] bike lanes and there's a lot of conversation happening around active transportation how do

[00:09:00] we connect the trailheads so people aren't driving in between them but it's unlike anywhere I've ever

[00:09:05] lived before you know Seattle had a very public facing process where if you wanted to build a

[00:09:11] bike lane it went through you know six months a year of conversation which might not necessarily

[00:09:16] be a bad thing but around here and I'm gonna try and say this as tactfully as possible

[00:09:22] there are power players that when they want something done it gets done and it's

[00:09:28] it's just it's hard to navigate and hard to figure out you know what does the public

[00:09:32] process look like what does advocacy look like when there's some bigger factors at play that we

[00:09:39] might not have visibility to yeah yeah that's so that's really interesting and I think it brings

[00:09:44] up a solid point that what can work in one place isn't going to necessarily going to

[00:09:49] work in another place but like you might find like an incredible model that's working

[00:09:52] really well in Seattle and you can't just map that onto anywhere else 100% yeah yeah it's been a

[00:09:59] it's been a learning curve and honestly and I'm sure we'll get into this we've learned that with

[00:10:02] our all bodies on bikes chapters you know what works in Denver might not necessarily work in

[00:10:06] a smaller place like Charlotte North Carolina or you know western Massachusetts each community

[00:10:12] is unique and I think adapting to to serve that is both a challenge and an opportunity

[00:10:19] oh that's really interesting can you share an example of that like what's one thing that

[00:10:22] worked in one place or didn't work in another yeah so um all bodies on bikes we've got 11 chapters

[00:10:28] soon to be 13 and we can talk about that I can tease that a little bit but um they exist in both

[00:10:35] like big places so we've got you know a new york city chapter a chicago chapter and then some

[00:10:40] more mid-sized places i would say Kansas City Denver and then some smaller places western

[00:10:45] massachusetts northwest arkansas and so you know our bigger cities like new york and chicago

[00:10:51] there's there's just a challenge of you know getting the word out and finding the folks for who

[00:10:56] all bodies on bikes is going to be meaningful whereas you know like in denver there's an

[00:11:01] amazingly inclusive cycling community you know there's a fems and them's ride there's a

[00:11:05] bunch of bipoc rides and the radical adventure riders and so figuring out where do we fit into

[00:11:10] that puzzle and how can we work together to both amplify those other groups and then also kind of be

[00:11:16] our own space and then in smaller places like northwest arkansas or western massachusetts figuring

[00:11:22] out you know what are those community needs and have they ever had an inclusive cycling community

[00:11:26] and explaining what does that actually mean what is a no drop ride um so it's just i guess scaffolding

[00:11:34] and figuring out what works where and it's it's a continual learning process yeah so it

[00:11:39] sounds like different levels of education are required in marketing just to get that when you go

[00:11:44] to a place like denver there's already a level of awareness right it sounds like that that you can

[00:11:49] kind of piggyback from but um yeah that's a really interesting that's an interesting conundrum

[00:11:53] and an interesting challenge i mean you know even things as simple as pronouns um i took for

[00:11:58] granted living in seattle and being in a lot of spaces where you were welcomed to bring your

[00:12:04] full identity you know whether that's your gender identity or your your racial makeup or just who you

[00:12:10] are and what you believe you're encouraged to bring that and you know almost every ride started with

[00:12:14] introductions including pronouns yeah and around here people look at you like you have three heads

[00:12:19] when you say i'm marley and i use she her pronouns there's kind of a well duh why are you telling

[00:12:24] me this um so there's just a lot of education that needs to happen and i took a lot of things

[00:12:29] for granted yeah yeah do you find um and to me that's honestly i'll be honest like i've been on a

[00:12:36] learning curve with that too because it wasn't something that was as commonplace or as well

[00:12:40] understood as it is now and i'm you know i wish i had understood sooner than i do it did have you

[00:12:45] found any friction with trying to educate in the community i mean what what has worked and

[00:12:49] what hasn't with that i mean yes and no it's i look at it similar to like education on size

[00:12:55] inclusion um and i try and just approach it with empathy you know if you if your lived experience

[00:13:01] is as a cisgender heterosexual person who's never been confronted with questions of your gender

[00:13:07] identity or you know encountered folks that you're aware of who are questioning this or

[00:13:13] you know why size inclusion matters i'm kind of jumping around yeah you might not even consider

[00:13:18] those things and so i think it's easy for us to get defensive or these people are just ignorant

[00:13:25] but it i think it's oftentimes just not being exposed to it and so yes there has been some friction

[00:13:31] but i think approaching it with empathy has allowed you know us to build bridges instead of tearing

[00:13:37] them down and build those relationships which i'm not going to lie it's not always easy to approach

[00:13:42] things with empathy um and to explain to somebody why i don't you know support x y z brand because

[00:13:48] they don't have you know even an extra large um and i it's one of those things where i feel

[00:13:52] like i shouldn't have to explain it but you do and that's just the reality of it yeah yeah and

[00:13:59] i think it would i always try to start from the framing of like assuming good intent yes

[00:14:05] until proven otherwise yes exactly and it doesn't always prove out but i think in most cases people

[00:14:11] genuinely have have good intentions and to your point they somebody who hasn't experienced

[00:14:16] that kind of marginalization they've never had to think about it so it's never entered their

[00:14:21] awareness in so yes the fact may be that they're ignorant of it but it's also not necessarily

[00:14:30] out of an ill intent exactly yeah that's malice and you know i will admit there's a lot of privilege

[00:14:37] that i have that i'm able to approach these conversations like that because you know i'm

[00:14:41] cisgendered um i can i can pass as straight i can pass in a lot of these places where

[00:14:47] you know if my skin was darker or my gender identity was not in alignment with my external

[00:14:53] you know how i present yeah people might not take me as seriously or be as willing to listen so

[00:15:00] just acknowledging that like it's privilege that lets me approach it with empathy you know my

[00:15:05] my existence isn't being questioned as as a human um and there's a lot of folks for whom

[00:15:10] that's not the case and i wouldn't expect them to approach those conversations with

[00:15:14] empathy or assuming good intent because they might not have good intent uh if i didn't you know

[00:15:20] if i wasn't who i am if that makes sense makes total sense because for some people if you're

[00:15:24] assuming good intent and the intent is not good it's not just a matter of misunderstanding there

[00:15:29] can be an actual concern for physical safety and yes that's a really i mean i feel like

[00:15:34] that's not something that i really had to deal with in my life as you know and and because i

[00:15:38] am cis hetero white woman and that you know i think it it's incumbent upon us to learn proactively

[00:15:48] so that we don't leave it to the people who are feeling marginalized and a threat to their own

[00:15:54] safety physical or otherwise to educate us on that on the other hand yeah it's um yeah we

[00:16:01] do have a position where we can come to these kinds of conversations with empathy and i think

[00:16:06] doing so is so important because then yeah we're taking on some of that labor and

[00:16:11] not leaving it to others exactly you know it's funny i just had a conversation the other day with a

[00:16:17] a very large pharmaceutical company um but i can't name because i signed an nda right but it was

[00:16:22] a conversation all about allyship to fat people and to bigger bodies and it was it was that

[00:16:28] exact conversation of how do you use your privilege as a smaller bodied person or as

[00:16:35] a medical professional to advocate for those who are more marginalized and in that situation we were

[00:16:40] talking about bigger bodies and you know people who who are fat and i think it's it's a similar

[00:16:46] conversation about allyship all over how do you use your your privilege and your power

[00:16:51] as relatively small as it may be to help those who are more marginalized yeah so we're bringing

[00:16:57] up two points that i have a little bit later in my notes but let's just dive into it right

[00:17:01] now one of the things that i wanted to dig into with you is this idea of intent versus impact

[00:17:05] because i think this is such a crucial just keystone of well all communication but specifically for

[00:17:12] yeah talking about people who are marginalized especially we know we'll use our cycling

[00:17:17] communities as an example but do you want to dive into that right now or like yeah i mean i think

[00:17:22] just like we were just talking about you know assuming good intent until proven otherwise

[00:17:27] but we also have to acknowledge the impact that our actions and our words can have you know i think

[00:17:32] about some races that i've been involved in or other communities where things have been said

[00:17:37] and it's like oh that was actually harmful and that hurts my feelings and i think oftentimes

[00:17:43] when you bring it up to people the first instinct is to get offended of well i didn't

[00:17:48] i didn't mean that i didn't i didn't mean to hurt your feelings this is really what i meant

[00:17:51] and you know i think we've all been there our first our gut reaction is to get defensive but

[00:17:56] i would really encourage folks to you know take a deep breath and it's okay to apologize and say

[00:18:02] hey i acknowledge i screwed up and i realized the impact this might have had and so acknowledging

[00:18:08] your impact i think is huge and then bringing it back to well what was the intent with that

[00:18:12] was the intent to to be size inclusive and maybe you just didn't quite do enough you

[00:18:17] know maybe the vendor that you thought you were working or that you were working with you

[00:18:21] thought went up to 3x and they only went up to xl or you know maybe a button wasn't clicked to make

[00:18:26] those extra sizes available it can be as simple as something like that where you know it's not

[00:18:31] life or death for anybody but the impact when i look at that is like oh well maybe this event

[00:18:36] isn't for me because they don't even have my size t-shirt available and yeah i i don't really

[00:18:42] know what else to say on that besides it's on all of us to be aware of the impact our words and

[00:18:48] our actions have on others oh for sure the example you just gave i think is a great one to look at

[00:18:54] really quickly this event might not be for me because they don't even have t-shirts in my size

[00:18:57] like somebody listening might think well what's the big deal like why would that you know

[00:19:02] yes we can see that there might be impact with that but i want to call something out here

[00:19:06] which is that you might have good intent and you might say something that hurt somebody else

[00:19:10] and it may you know cause some what seems like small amount of harm but what to you may seem

[00:19:16] like a small amount of harm to that person maybe just you know the straw that broke the camel's

[00:19:22] back or 100 percent it's one more incidence of hurt and harm that's getting piled onto a lifetime

[00:19:30] of hurt and harm and so as a person who's been experiencing this their whole life

[00:19:36] the person whom you harmed it's going to have a much much bigger impact because it starts to weigh

[00:19:41] exponentially on them and so your you know transgression whatever it may have been and even

[00:19:48] if it was of good intent the harm that you see isn't necessarily going to match the weight of the

[00:19:55] impact of that person's whole lived experience and i think that's a really hard thing to remember

[00:20:01] yeah and that's such a good point and i think you know the t-shirt is a is a perfect example of that

[00:20:07] where i have literally chosen not to attend events because they didn't have swag that fit me or the

[00:20:15] you know the the jersey provider they are choosing to work with doesn't even make my size and so

[00:20:20] to me like that feels like a clear signal that like oh somebody like me isn't welcome at this

[00:20:25] event when that might not be the case at all you know there might be existing relationships

[00:20:30] that determine you know who they use for jerseys it might be any number of factors but like you said

[00:20:36] it's that that lifetime of being told you know you're too fat to be a cyclist when you can't even

[00:20:41] wear the signifier that's like hey i'm part of this group and i did this ride it's a very clear

[00:20:47] indicator that like nope this isn't for me which talking about it seems really silly it's a piece

[00:20:52] of clothing but it's such a signifier of belonging um and being included and being part of the

[00:20:59] the crew so yeah it's it's very symbolic i mean heck completing a marathon and getting a medal like

[00:21:05] people want those participation medals because it signifies that you were a part of this thing

[00:21:09] and you belonged and you achieved this thing and it's it's deeply personal and meaningful

[00:21:14] what if you ran a marathon and you know they made medals that didn't fit over your head like

[00:21:19] i mean it's just and to your point it's it's that you know it's one more event where one

[00:21:25] more time they're telling you in one way or another that you don't belong and why would you

[00:21:31] put yourself in that position to go through that you know why would you subject yourself to that hurt

[00:21:36] again if you don't need to and you have a choice in the matter yeah exactly and it's something i've

[00:21:40] been thinking about a lot because i i do have the the choice of the events that i do i mean

[00:21:45] obviously my sponsors asked me to go to some and other events will reach out to me and

[00:21:49] asked me to be there and in those i feel a little more i guess leeway or permission to to

[00:21:56] not bug but to ask the event organizers hey i see that you're working with xyz company

[00:22:00] i know they make up to a size six x can you please include those on the size or like on the available

[00:22:06] sizes but if it's just a random event that i'm going to as a normal person um it's a lot harder

[00:22:11] to make that ask and i extrapolate that out to you know your everyday rider who might be

[00:22:16] registering for an event you know i'm in this position where folks know me as being kind of

[00:22:21] a loudmouth for size inclusion and for asking for these things but i imagine if you let's call

[00:22:26] it is leader leader leader yes a leader in size inclusion thank you uh can you tell

[00:22:32] i have some insecurities over this um but if you're just like an average everyday person

[00:22:37] like how do you even start it's a lot it i think it's easier to be like oh no another

[00:22:42] event not to put on my list so well you have established yourself as a leader so you definitely

[00:22:48] have that voice and that leverage and if it's hard for you i can only imagine how hard it would be

[00:22:53] for somebody who's just rocking up and you know maybe looking at their first or second event

[00:22:57] and feeling like oh hey i just noticed that i don't you know they don't include my size on

[00:23:02] the race registration or the participation jersey or whatever it is and

[00:23:06] that would feel deeply uncomfortable to bring up so thank you for doing that but also i think this

[00:23:13] is a great opportunity to encourage folks that like if you are attending events if you're involved

[00:23:17] in your community these are conversations you're allowed to have even if you're not

[00:23:21] an influencer yeah and even if you're not a bigger-bodied person um one of my best or my

[00:23:27] biggest tips for allyship to bigger-bodied folks is you know look at the brands that you love

[00:23:32] to wear if you were one two even three sizes bigger could you still wear that brand and if the answers

[00:23:39] no i'd encourage you to look towards another brand that is size inclusive or you know if you are

[00:23:44] attending an event and you notice that oh wow the event shirts only go up to an extra large

[00:23:49] can you say something is there an opportunity for like comments of hey please include bigger

[00:23:54] sizes like you don't have to be in a bigger body to advocate for those changes yeah and even

[00:23:59] if there's not a place for the comments i'll just throw out there that there is usually a way to

[00:24:04] contact either the event director or the event promoter they always have contact information

[00:24:08] on the website and even if that's not the right person to connect with initially that person

[00:24:13] will know who to connect you with so that's always a good starting place if you can't find

[00:24:18] you know some other place to leave a comment or feedback because yeah that's your job and marley

[00:24:23] is a really well-known leader in this space but in some way we are all influencers with our wallets

[00:24:30] yes 100% honestly you more than me because i'm not paying for most of the things that i'm getting

[00:24:35] so yeah that's true right so the people who are paying those event registration fees

[00:24:39] those race promoters and those directors they want to grow their events they want to have

[00:24:43] more people at their events and it behooves them to hear this feedback from folks so

[00:24:47] yes yeah but you know i'd encourage you to do it with kindness assume good intent

[00:24:51] because you know being the squeaky wheel you get the grease but i like to do it with a

[00:24:55] smile on my face uh because you're still going to interact with these people at future events

[00:24:59] or when you go to their race it's it's really nice to be like hey i was the person who emailed

[00:25:03] you about getting a 3x thank you so much um and those are the interactions that

[00:25:07] that leave lasting impressions i think yeah yeah and i don't want to leave this conversation

[00:25:12] without addressing the intent part of it because i think that's an important piece too

[00:25:15] and you touched on this that when something you say with good intent

[00:25:19] lands differently than you intended and ends up causing harm that hurts and i think

[00:25:23] i feel like i can speak for a lot of people in saying that most of us like to believe ourselves

[00:25:27] to be good people and the idea that you might hurt somebody when what you said was with

[00:25:35] good intention is difficult to confront because it sort of forces you to question that part of

[00:25:41] your identity as being like well i you know it's kind of like well i can't do racist things

[00:25:47] because i'm not a racist well you might not consider yourself a racist but like i know i mean

[00:25:55] i have done racist things and i don't want to believe that i'm a racist person but i

[00:25:59] certainly have done racist things and yeah it doesn't necessarily mean that i'm a bad person

[00:26:04] i may have done all of those things i think i did all of those things with good intent

[00:26:07] but the impact wasn't what i intended because i had some level of lack of understanding

[00:26:14] and i just want to throw out there that as painful it is as it is sometimes to think like

[00:26:18] i just want to reassure folks like you can still be a good person who does occasionally cause harm

[00:26:23] i feel like that's the case for pretty much most people on the planet yeah you know i think about

[00:26:27] friendships relationships i think at various points we all inadvertently cause harm to our

[00:26:33] loved ones or our friends or somebody else and you know taking a step back and saying yes i

[00:26:40] screwed up like how do we make this better how do i acknowledge the impact that this had on you

[00:26:46] and how do we move forward um you know maybe not moving on because that that harm is still there

[00:26:51] but how do we make it better and how do we move forward from here with a shared understanding

[00:26:55] yeah yeah so taking that step and i'll say even just in personal relationships one of the things

[00:27:01] i've found really helpful is to stop myself from defending the intent i know that my intent

[00:27:06] was good and i just really want to get that out there to defend myself but if i can just like

[00:27:12] pause that for a second and attend to the impact first okay how did this actually impact you this

[00:27:18] actually hurt you clearly my intent wasn't to hurt but i don't need to say that yet i can just

[00:27:23] be like wow i see that that really hurt you you just validate that and then you you know

[00:27:30] a sincere apology goes a long way and i tend to repair right take it a step further what can

[00:27:35] i do you know in this moment or in the future to repair this harm if possible and then once you've

[00:27:43] attended to the impact and the harm and you've apologized and attempted a repair then you can

[00:27:49] come back and say hey i just want you to know this is what i intended you know i i didn't

[00:27:55] want to hurt you but if you start by defending the intent without acknowledging the impact

[00:28:02] it creates this vicious cycle where neither person is hearing the other and i just

[00:28:06] i don't know is that something that you've experienced yourself oh yeah 100 and while you were

[00:28:11] thinking while you were speaking it got me thinking about the impact of social media oh my gosh

[00:28:17] and i think front of my mind right now is all these diet culture memes that are going around

[00:28:21] especially in january yes and people just like really nearly throw them up on their stories

[00:28:27] without thinking about the impact of somebody else scrolling through it and oh god is that something

[00:28:34] i'm supposed to be ashamed of or oh my god i never even thought about that food as being a quote on

[00:28:38] quote bad food and i think in the age of social media our sphere of influence is so much bigger

[00:28:46] than we ever have had before you know even if you're like i mean i've got almost 40 000 followers

[00:28:52] so mine is like i can't even comprehend it sometimes but even if you're just like a normal

[00:28:56] person with a couple hundred followers or your friends and family like when folks see these things

[00:29:01] there's just reverberating impacts and so i think just being aware of what we put out there as well

[00:29:06] and i think also just being keenly attuned to what our intent is you know are we sharing it for a

[00:29:12] laugh are we sharing it to commiserate with somebody but how is that interpreted and how

[00:29:17] does that impact all your followers who are who are seeing that yeah and with 40 000 followers

[00:29:22] i imagined that is not easy to do um but on the other hand the point is not to be perfect with it

[00:29:28] right like 100 yeah maybe it's just about you know start to think about it understand that

[00:29:33] you're not going to get it right every time but be open to feedback right and if somebody says like hey

[00:29:39] i saw this i'm sure that you thought that was funny but here's how it landed with me again

[00:29:44] go the impact first you know yeah yeah and you know a really salient example of this is last week

[00:29:50] last week two weeks ago i don't know time is irrelevant right now

[00:29:56] i put up a real um shredley who is my new clothing sponsor yes sent me a box of more clothes

[00:30:02] super super excited for and i put up a reel of me trying them on and dancing and i had

[00:30:07] you know the caption i said a size inclusive mountain bike brand like finally and i had probably

[00:30:12] three or four people reach out to me and say hey marley love what you're doing congratulations

[00:30:17] on this i wear a size 28 i can't wear their stuff and it's like you know that's a that's a

[00:30:22] reality check for me um because shredley is doing incredible things you know they've got size double

[00:30:27] zero to 24 you know extra extra small through 3x and most things which is pretty darn good and

[00:30:33] better than most cycling brands out there but acknowledging that like when i say a size inclusive

[00:30:38] brand there could still be folks that are left out of that and that's not my intent at all

[00:30:44] but so just you know yeah being aware of our language is really important we'll be back with

[00:30:49] more from marley after this quick break if you appreciate what we're doing and want to support

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[00:32:14] slash community that's be a good wheel dot com slash community and now back to our conversation

[00:32:21] with co-founder of all bodies on bikes marley blonsky well i think that everything that

[00:32:26] you're doing with all bodies on bikes is hopefully increasing awareness and a sense of

[00:32:31] belonging for people in bigger bodies in the cycling community that's my hope yeah i feel like

[00:32:37] and i i have to believe that that is a big barrier to just buying cycling clothes straight up

[00:32:42] it 100% you know i think about and i i told this story recently i wrote a blog for adventure

[00:32:47] cycling about what to wear um because i think a lot of folks getting into cycling have no idea

[00:32:54] and it's so funny to me now that like bike shorts and you can't see this on a podcast but

[00:32:58] like i'm using quotes as bike shorts because like they're back in as like an athleisure item

[00:33:04] so i feel like i have to specify when i say oh you know wear bike shorts like you should probably

[00:33:09] wear padded bike shorts if you're you know going any distance but it made me think about my journey

[00:33:14] to getting cycling clothing and for my first probably five years of riding bikes i didn't

[00:33:18] have a pair of cycling clothes or cycling padded cycling shorts i finally found a pair

[00:33:23] Goodwill which is kind of gross um but also whatever they're clean they're clean clothing gets washed

[00:33:30] it's fine but that was a real barrier for me you know the first cycling kit that i had that actually

[00:33:36] fit wasn't until 2020 from machines for freedom and it was like this light bulb moment of oh

[00:33:43] now i understand why people wear this lycra nonsense like it actually feels good when it

[00:33:48] fits you yeah and allows you to ride further and longer without worrying about seams or clothing

[00:33:54] or any of those things well getting a stomach ache just because you've got a band in the wrong place

[00:33:59] like yes 100 yeah shout out to bibs um i will just like regular shorts for a long time um and

[00:34:07] i feel like they were always rolling down under my belly and then i tried bibs and i was like oh

[00:34:12] this solves everything oh cool they solve so many problems i for me it was when i started shorts were

[00:34:19] always like if it was a women's kit it was shorts and if it was a men's kit it was bibs yep and i

[00:34:24] remember the first time trying bibs going oh my gosh i don't have a stomach ache when i ride

[00:34:29] yeah what like i just i thought i had like nutrition problems or i wasn't fueling or

[00:34:34] hydrating no it was literally just the shorts it's so funny and i will say not to be

[00:34:39] self-promotional but to be a little bit self-promotional yeah go for it we literally just

[00:34:44] released the all bodies on bike cycling kits so we we did it with a brand who makes everything from

[00:34:49] kid sizes all the way up to six x for for reference i wear two x in their brand so it's pretty true

[00:34:55] to size but we got to pick out the items that we wanted and it was like yeah we're gonna have

[00:35:00] jerseys we're gonna have long sleeve we're gonna have a vest we're gonna have winter tights

[00:35:05] because those are things that's next to impossible to find if you're in a bigger body

[00:35:09] so if you go to all bodies on bikes.com you'll see a link to it and those are open to the public

[00:35:13] to buy um love it so yeah be part of our community be part of the crew all we ask is that you don't

[00:35:19] be a jerk while you're wearing it so fair enough fair enough and this is a great opportunity to

[00:35:23] influence through your wallet folks yes take note yeah and we are non-profit so we'll get

[00:35:28] we get a small percentage of that and it's an opportunity to be a good wheel yes hey thanks

[00:35:34] for bringing it back yes so on that note i'm gonna jump around a little bit in my questions

[00:35:40] so you have you've consulted for a lot of major outdoor brands and companies so and

[00:35:44] you are a well-established leader in this space what is something that you've learned in those

[00:35:48] interactions about leadership and that's been particularly effective in moving the needle

[00:35:54] I love this question and I think it's just to approach with humility it's really easy

[00:35:59] when you've been on like magazine covers and you know you get named to the 50 most influential

[00:36:04] which we can talk about that later but yes that's so silly but to ask questions to figure out you

[00:36:11] know obviously when I go into a brand my goal is to get them to have more extensive sizing and to

[00:36:17] make products for bigger bodies but before I go in you know guns blazing and say this is what

[00:36:22] you should do I try and find out you know what challenges are you facing you know what

[00:36:26] market are you trying to reach have you ever tried or explored extended sizing before and

[00:36:32] oftentimes what I'm finding is that a lot of these brands have had it on their development

[00:36:35] roadmap for years and they have you know dipped a toe into it and it didn't sell well

[00:36:41] or you know they started exploring it and just never took it further and so you know we think

[00:36:47] we know the answer to something just from the outside and there's usually so much more to the

[00:36:52] story and so just exploring and approaching any conversation with curiosity and humility

[00:36:57] I think has allowed me to have have some success in this area oh my gosh I love that I feel like

[00:37:02] that's advice that like we should apply to so many so many aspects of life like yeah approach

[00:37:07] with humility and curiosity like I feel like I'm just gonna stick that post it on my computer

[00:37:13] but especially when when folks who are you know looking to you as an expert and as a person

[00:37:18] that they trust you know establishing that they also have knowledge and they are the experts in

[00:37:23] their own brand and so how can I help influence that how can I make their brand appeal to a broader

[00:37:30] audience you know I don't have all the answers but together we can come up with something

[00:37:34] oh I love that it's such a good it's such a collaborative approach like you're not just

[00:37:37] coming in guns blazing like here's how you got to do things you're taking time to understand

[00:37:41] the context of where they're coming from too which yeah yeah because there's some

[00:37:46] especially when we talk about extended sizing there's some very real economic challenges there's

[00:37:50] merchandising challenges you know old navy is a great example I don't remember maybe a year or two

[00:37:55] ago now they came out with this campaign of size equality and the idea was they were going to have

[00:38:00] every style from size 00 through 40 available in store and online and it was like just a blanket

[00:38:06] approach and so you had stores in northwest Arkansas getting the same merchandise as stores

[00:38:11] in Denver or stores in Seattle or Portland and when you look at the demographics of who lives

[00:38:17] where and body sizes it's not distributed evenly like a blanket yes there are larger

[00:38:22] bodied folks everywhere but there's higher concentrations in certain areas and so it

[00:38:26] makes sense to have you know maybe more sizes in the south in the midwest where people tend

[00:38:31] to be bigger and then you know maybe in some of those other markets you know the Denver

[00:38:35] to Seattle the Portland not having everything as as much as that sucks for those people who live

[00:38:40] there and want everything it helps ensure more success and you know there's there's other elements

[00:38:45] there of advertising and marketing and social media you know there's a couple big brands right now who

[00:38:51] have recently in the outdoor space who have launched extended sized stuff but if you look

[00:38:56] on their social media you would have no idea and so I'm fully expecting those to go away

[00:39:01] right they're not going to do it again next season because nobody's buying it because we don't

[00:39:05] know it exists yeah yeah and that I feel like that's a really such a tough aspect of any time

[00:39:13] you're dealing with product and forecasting demand right because like you said even with the the

[00:39:18] Shredley line like if you build it will they come right and at what point do you make the call

[00:39:23] like we've given this experiment enough time to play out and understand what the ultimate

[00:39:28] result will be because I think I see this a lot with company I even saw this in software

[00:39:32] like the company will try something they'll put it out there and it didn't immediately move the

[00:39:36] bottom line so yep it's done we're going to go on to the next thing and I think that that's such a

[00:39:41] it's such a shame because things take time it takes time for people to understand what's available

[00:39:46] to you know to find your early adopters to get people to move away from you know other

[00:39:52] brands I mean it's a process right it is yeah if we don't give it enough time we haven't

[00:39:58] given it an honest or a good faith shot and that yeah that's a tough one and I feel for the companies

[00:40:04] too I get it like continuing to spend money on something that isn't clearly immediately making

[00:40:10] a difference in your bottom line that's a really tough call to make and who wants to be the person

[00:40:15] making that call 100% yeah but that's why I'm so grateful you know there's brands Osprey they're

[00:40:21] they're one of my sponsors but you know last year they released this extended fit pack

[00:40:25] or extended fit line of packs and they hired me to consult we started probably two and a

[00:40:30] half years ago and we did training with the entire company you know everybody from the

[00:40:34] product developers through to customer support to marketing to social media and you know we looked

[00:40:40] at best practices we look at case studies and we talk about the long game that you know you have

[00:40:45] to get in with the influencers who have the audiences and it will take time and you've got

[00:40:50] to get into those you know the retail teams and teach them how and when somebody would need an

[00:40:55] extended pack how do you talk about that without saying hey you're a fat person you'd like this

[00:41:00] thing which is just gonna you know probably horrify somebody and say oh my god I'm never

[00:41:05] shopping there again so I don't know I guess this is all just a pitch uh hey if your brand

[00:41:11] wants to explore this I would love to help you and it will be a process it is a long game

[00:41:16] but 70% of Americans wear bigger than a size 14 yeah we are the majority and we're just not

[00:41:23] being served by a lot of brands so yeah yeah and it behooves them to start serving that exactly

[00:41:29] for their bottom line let's be honest so what are some misconceptions about leadership that you've

[00:41:35] encountered in your work with brands and other leaders in the industry yeah that we have all

[00:41:40] the answers I think people you know expect us to be an expert I think people expect us not to

[00:41:47] screw up I've screwed up numerous times and yeah I think and maybe this is getting way too personal

[00:41:54] but I think it goes along with you know having all the answers but that we're all financially

[00:41:58] successful and right now that's probably my biggest struggle is trying to you know getting all

[00:42:03] bodies on bikes off the ground as a non-profit and trying to find funding which you know

[00:42:07] it's a two-sided thing at least in my life where most of my money right now is coming from

[00:42:11] being a quote unquote athlete or sponsored athlete that's where most of my paycheck comes from but

[00:42:16] I'm not I'm not rolling the dough you know I might have beautiful bicycles from Cannondale

[00:42:20] and beautiful clothes from Shredley and you know new helmets and lights and you know top of the

[00:42:25] line equipment but that doesn't pay my bills necessarily and so I think there's a misconception

[00:42:30] there that those of us who are who are doing this work have all the answers we've got

[00:42:34] it all together and that you know we're we're making a ton of money off it

[00:42:41] I'm laughing really hard because I've really identified with this having you know my my

[00:42:46] living was off from sponsorship for a long time and a long part of my career and you know you

[00:42:49] say the words professional athlete or paid athlete and people just think like NBA star

[00:42:53] right yeah they're immediately assuming that you've got a million dollar contracts and it's

[00:42:56] like no no no we are hustling so hard hustling so hard and honestly like I was in

[00:43:02] corporate America for 12 years and when I left I was making six figures living pretty darn comfortably

[00:43:08] and now I make half that I'm able to make it work because of the choices that I've made but

[00:43:13] I'm not saving for retirement right now you know all of it's going back into the business and

[00:43:17] back into getting all bodies on bikes off the ground and I'm hopeful that you know this will

[00:43:21] start to turn around and we've got some things in the works that will hopefully make it more

[00:43:26] financially viable but it's it's a real day-to-day struggle yeah and it's something I mean

[00:43:31] obviously you've made this choice intentionally and it's a very you're doing incredibly meaningful

[00:43:35] and impactful work thank you but at the same time like yeah it doesn't doesn't come for free

[00:43:41] and that brings up another question that I had for you which is do you feel a sense of calling

[00:43:45] and purpose in what you're doing now and I want to connect that back to and extend that to

[00:43:50] wonder like how does that compare with how you felt about a sense of purpose in your corporate

[00:43:54] work so kind of two questions there for you yeah um I'd say half and half for feeling a purpose you

[00:44:00] know I am an instant gratification person as I think a lot of us are and right now it's January

[00:44:08] it's the depth of winter it can be hard to see that bigger purpose you know when I'm doing the

[00:44:13] accounting or you know doing the admin on the website or putting together resource guides

[00:44:19] it can be really hard to remind myself that no this is making an impact on people's lives

[00:44:23] and making bike riding better and making you know inclusion and access to this sport that I love

[00:44:29] better but you know as soon as that first event rolls around or we have a zoom call with all of

[00:44:33] our chapter leaders I'm reminded of that bigger sense of purpose and it all comes back to me

[00:44:39] and so I'm trying to be more aware that it's all for the long game it's all serving a purpose

[00:44:45] and just because you know I'm not seeing those faces every day or at starting line with other

[00:44:50] bigger bodied folks um that the work is still having an impact and you know taking it back to

[00:44:56] my corporate days so I was in corporate sustainability for a very long time and my job was basically

[00:45:02] to help brands calculate their carbon footprint from shipping and figure out ways to reduce it

[00:45:07] which I could go on and on about that all day and it's interesting because I mean at times

[00:45:14] that felt impactful but we were often talking in such abstract numbers you know if we're

[00:45:19] working with Nike or Walmart about the carbon footprint of sending you know three container

[00:45:25] containers full of shoes like what's the impact of sending that on an airplane versus sending it

[00:45:29] on a cargo ship and those numbers just feel very arbitrary versus now it's like you know I get

[00:45:34] messages from folks on Instagram all the time saying you've inspired me to get back on a bike

[00:45:38] or you've inspired me to you know go with my kids around the block so it's a different level

[00:45:44] of impact but I think both felt purposeful if that makes sense makes total sense yeah I mean

[00:45:49] with the carbon offsets I mean you can't even you can't see carbon dioxide and you can't

[00:45:53] see the offsets I mean you can see them on paper and you know that they're real

[00:45:59] you know it's making a difference but it's not as tangible in the same way as having an actual

[00:46:04] real person take the time to send you a message on Instagram about how you've just directly

[00:46:09] changed their life for the better exactly yeah and I have a really hard time reading those

[00:46:15] messages and internalizing it and I'm again just something that I'm working on is gratitude

[00:46:21] for those folks who take the time to reach out to me because you know I think about back early

[00:46:25] in my cycling career Leal Wilcox was and still is one of my heroes and I remember writing to

[00:46:30] her on Instagram I think it was it might have been an email at that point and she wrote back

[00:46:35] and that gave me such validation and happiness and I have to remind myself that like folks look

[00:46:41] to me the way that I looked to my heroes yeah and it's it's really humbling and just keeping

[00:46:48] that at the forefront of this is why we do the work that we do yeah which is not easy to do on a

[00:46:53] day-to-day basis and you know you gave this beautiful description of leadership as not

[00:46:59] necessarily having all the answers not necessarily having it all together the way that people

[00:47:03] on the outside looking in might think but I think that there's something really beautiful

[00:47:07] inspiring about that too because it reminds people that you don't have to have it all together

[00:47:12] and you don't have to have the answers and you might not feel your sense of purpose every single day

[00:47:19] and all of those things can be true and you can be one of the 50 most influential people in

[00:47:25] cycling in America like you can have such a real impact even in the middle of all of that

[00:47:31] doubt or confusion or yeah I think you know it goes back to having a really solid purpose and

[00:47:40] for me that's you know a mission and a vision to expand access to cycling for people in bigger

[00:47:46] bodies and if I can relate the work that I'm doing you know as mundane as it might be or as

[00:47:52] big as it might be to you know does this help further the mission does this allow somebody

[00:47:59] who weighs 400 pounds to find a bike that's safe for them things like that and that's what I think

[00:48:04] keeps me going even through all like the the murkiness and the uncertainty and all of those

[00:48:09] things yeah well you guys heard it here if Marley's work has impacted you in any way and

[00:48:15] you thought about it it's crossed your mind give her a shout out send her a message because you

[00:48:20] know the people that you look to as leaders are people too and hearing from people that what

[00:48:25] they do makes a difference oh my gosh it's a game changer and it really does mean the world so

[00:48:30] don't hesitate to send that message and whether it's Marley or somebody else like let them know

[00:48:34] that they're a good wheel for you because it really does make a big difference yeah and it's

[00:48:39] exhausting always you know being in the limelight or being looked to as a leader in this space

[00:48:45] yeah you don't I feel like you're about to make me cry but yeah we are people too and

[00:48:52] we have our bad days and we have our good days and just letting us know that you see

[00:48:56] the work that we do oh my gosh yeah it's huge yeah it can feel especially in this age of social media

[00:49:03] it can feel like you're screaming into a void right out into the internet ether and you know

[00:49:09] that people out there forget there's a real person on this side of it and it's easy to forget

[00:49:13] that there are real people out on the other side of the ether who are receiving your work and

[00:49:19] and feeling genuinely and positively impacted by it so yeah well for what it's worth you've

[00:49:24] been a great wheel for me well thank you so thank you for all the work that you do because I've

[00:49:29] certainly benefited from it big time and and I know I'm not the only one so that's been one of

[00:49:34] the and I've talked about this a couple times on other places but that's been one of the most

[00:49:37] surprising things to me is the reaction or the response from the pros who you know as I would

[00:49:44] consider myself an average cyclist like I think I have pretty good bike handling skills but like

[00:49:48] speed I'm average if not below average anyway not the point from hearing from the pros you

[00:49:54] know whether it's Ellen Noble or Paysa McKelvin or just so many folks who have said thank you for

[00:49:59] bringing these conversations um because you know I've never been exposed to the pros like I have

[00:50:05] been these last couple years where we're sharing sponsors and we're invited to events together

[00:50:08] but there's a lot of pressure on the pointy end of the race to look a certain way and

[00:50:14] to keep your body in a certain physical shape and so I just was not expecting that at all

[00:50:20] but I guess I shouldn't be surprised because you know anytime there's a performance aspect

[00:50:24] folks are never really going to want you to be smaller and lighter and leaner and all those things

[00:50:28] yeah big time and I experienced that myself and it was it was really difficult for me personally

[00:50:33] but I have a lot of thin privilege and so what I was experiencing was very different and

[00:50:38] I think one thing that you can again I'm painting with a broad brush here but I feel like this

[00:50:42] is a fairly accurate statement like anybody who makes it to the pro ranks really loves bikes

[00:50:48] like they just love bikes and when you really really love something it's so much more fun

[00:50:53] and meaningful to share it with other people and so the more people that you see coming into the

[00:50:58] sport and loving bikes too and sharing that love for the bike I think it's so pros can seem very

[00:51:04] aloof but when in fact they just genuinely want to share love of bikes and I think or the pros

[00:51:10] who are struggling with trying to achieve a certain you know body type or look and then

[00:51:16] maybe being close to achieving that or maybe achieving that they're not in the best position

[00:51:20] to credibly encourage you know all bikes all bodies on bikes in the same way because people

[00:51:26] you know like I could say that and people might look at me be like well you have no idea

[00:51:30] what it's like and they would be absolutely right even if my sincere intent

[00:51:36] is to encourage all people to get on bikes and not to say that I shouldn't

[00:51:39] but my credibility in that is limited because my lived experience is limited

[00:51:44] in how I can connect with other people and so it's important that we do this you know

[00:51:48] from all sides and and yeah absolutely everything that you're doing is so appreciated by

[00:51:54] I would say anybody who loves bikes yeah and you know I I would challenge you a little bit

[00:51:58] that just because it hasn't been your lived experience necessarily I'm sure you have friends

[00:52:03] and family and other folks who you would love to share a bike ride with and maybe they are

[00:52:08] facing barriers that relate to their body size or finding clothing or mobility issues or just

[00:52:14] you know things like that so while it may not be your personal experience I'm sure you have friends

[00:52:18] and family who you can very much relate to in this area the very good point yes and well taken

[00:52:26] so you you have I mean you've created this amazing career for yourself outside of the

[00:52:31] corporate world now in this advocacy space has been paid to ride changed your relationship

[00:52:37] with your bike yeah it's made it so much more fun I mean honestly like and right now in Arkansas the

[00:52:47] weather is just absolutely awful but when it's nicer you know I try and make a point of two or

[00:52:52] three days a week going out and riding and often making content but not not always you know I never

[00:52:58] set out to be a content creator and if I could like throw my Instagram away tomorrow I totally would

[00:53:04] um but I will say you know like getting paid to ride my bike um has reframed my approach to things

[00:53:11] you know when I'm out on unbound and it's hour 11 you know a lot of people just get into that

[00:53:16] pain cave and I'm like no I'm getting paid to do this this is awesome like who else gets to ride

[00:53:23] their bike and get paid for it and not have to worry about getting on the podium you know my

[00:53:27] sponsors specifically don't ask me to get on the podium it's more about bringing new folks

[00:53:32] into the fold education advocacy and just sharing my experience and I am so lucky to get to ride bikes

[00:53:39] in a way that's fun and get paid for it that I think you know if I was getting expected to have

[00:53:44] certain results or mileage or whatever it might be different so yeah I'm curious of like if other

[00:53:51] pros feel the same way of like that it's such an honor but my my experience is again is so

[00:53:56] unique that like they're not expecting podiums and I think if I started a podium they'd be

[00:54:01] like that's not really what we hired before

[00:54:08] yeah I think um I think for a lot of pros and results thing is it weighs very very heavily but

[00:54:12] I I think it would be hard to find somebody even who's under a lot of pressure like that who doesn't

[00:54:17] also recognize what a freaking awesome thing it is to be able to do something you love and get

[00:54:23] paid for it like yeah even yeah and I have heard myself of that you know like on these days

[00:54:27] when I'm getting on the trainer you know I'm not training for anything specifically

[00:54:32] I'm training so that when I get out there at those events I have the stamina and the energy to

[00:54:37] you know lead a shakeout ride and then the next day ride 100 miles and then the day after that

[00:54:41] do a meet and greet you know that's what I'm on the trainer for is that endurance to where when

[00:54:45] somebody pulls up next to me and wants to have a conversation I can have that conversation

[00:54:49] and not be absolutely dying um so yeah just reminding myself of those things

[00:54:56] when it does feel like why am I doing this like why am I putting chamois cream on again

[00:55:03] oh man I feel and for those listening if you guys ride indoor trainers or a peloton bike or any

[00:55:09] kind of a stationary bike highly recommend the chamois cream just yeah if that's not something

[00:55:12] that has been a part of your life cannot recommend it enough you know I got a message on instagram

[00:55:17] the other day I was like hey there's no dumb questions um because I'm about to do some

[00:55:21] writing I always feel like I blur writing and writing it's hard not to yeah so I'm going to

[00:55:27] be writing some articles about topics that are relevant to newer cyclists but I had to you know

[00:55:33] what questions do new cyclists have I've been doing this for 10 years now and somebody asked

[00:55:38] like am I supposed to wear underwear with my cycling shorts and that was like a oh yeah we do

[00:55:43] still have to talk about this yeah so don't wear underwear wear chamois cream um but also like

[00:55:48] ask me your dumb questions um I'm sure I've made that mistake if there's a wrong way to do something

[00:55:53] I have done it and you're not alone in that yep there are people everywhere at all points in

[00:55:59] their journey on the bike and it takes I mean it's a steep learning curve like it is yeah

[00:56:04] there's a lot to learn the funny thing is like you know you think you know so much about it

[00:56:09] and then you get thrown into a new discipline you know moving to Bentonville I was like oh I

[00:56:13] guess I'm gonna learn how to ride mountain bikes uh and I've probably taken 20 lessons

[00:56:18] and people are still like oh you need to take a lesson from this person and learn how to corner

[00:56:23] and learn how to jump and I'm like no I want to keep my wheels on the ground but I'll still call

[00:56:28] myself a mountain biker on those green trails that I love doing heck yeah what has that been

[00:56:32] like for you because I'm you know pure roadie here so and I started to dabble a bit in mountain

[00:56:37] bike purely for fun but it's what was that like jumping on a new learning curve like that

[00:56:41] I hate it really yeah like I'm used to being slow I'm used to taking forever to do a gravel ride

[00:56:48] but it's really scary mountain biking is scary to me because I really don't like falling yeah

[00:56:53] and it's just a whole new skill set you know learning how to position my weight how to

[00:56:58] break with one finger it's like riding a bike but it's not and I'm learning that it's okay

[00:57:03] to say no to certain skills yes I had a video go viral last fall of me crashing pretty epically

[00:57:11] at a jump clinic and thankfully it was a crash onto an airbag I didn't get injured severely

[00:57:17] but it made me realize that like it's okay to not want to jump it's okay to not want to you know

[00:57:22] I'm trying to think about other like jumping or do drops like I like to keep my wheels on the

[00:57:26] ground and that has been hard you know telling people no I don't want to go on your group ride

[00:57:32] because I want to do my easy green trails that I like doing yeah so yeah I was so legitimate

[00:57:37] and I think that I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think that can be such a big

[00:57:41] misconception of you know cycling is this wonderful opportunity for growth yeah but you get to choose

[00:57:47] the ways in which you grow exactly yeah and if it's joyful for you to ride the greenway

[00:57:52] three miles so be it you know I think there's there's such an emphasis on getting better and

[00:57:58] longer and faster and more epic and bigger jumps and all these things and if that's not what

[00:58:03] you're into don't do it do what makes you happy because it really doesn't matter yeah and anything

[00:58:08] else from experience those green trails have a lot of learning to offer yes yeah and there is so much

[00:58:15] that you can do to grow and improve your skills on those trails without taking your wheels off

[00:58:20] the ground doing jumps and drops like you're not missing out you get to choose you get to choose

[00:58:25] your own adventure yeah exactly yeah speaking as a kid of the 80s I loved those books oh man really

[00:58:33] so speaking of mountain biking and challenges take us back to one of your most challenging

[00:58:38] moments what was happening and how did you meet that moment good question what's at the top of my

[00:58:45] mind right now because I was thinking about my relationship to climbing really used to have

[00:58:49] like a hate relationship with climbing and I'm talking about climbing hills on a bicycle

[00:58:54] and I was on bike packing trip I was in actually I can think of two examples actually yeah we'll

[00:59:01] talk about my mexico my most recent one okay I was doing the the cape loop or I was supposed to be

[00:59:05] doing the cape loop it's the southernmost portion of the bahá divide and it's about a 300 mile

[00:59:11] loop I was doing it with a couple friends from Seattle a couple people I had just met

[00:59:14] and we were planning to do it over seven days and we got out there on the first day and the first day

[00:59:20] was just a lot of climbing on very loose I would call it dirt almost sand um and it was like 85

[00:59:26] degrees and I just hit a wall and I realized I was not in the physical shape to do this ride

[00:59:32] I was not in a good mental space and that if I was to continue I would be a danger to myself

[00:59:38] and my friends would not be able to get in the mileage that they wanted to to complete this

[00:59:43] trip and I found myself I was like maybe 15 miles in to what was supposed to be like probably a 45 50

[00:59:49] mile day sitting in like the shade of a cactus tree cactus tree cactus tree is not a thing a cactus

[00:59:57] overheating dizzy and just pretty darn miserable really questioning what am I doing out here I

[01:00:02] was so in so far over my head and my friends had gone up ahead and we had a plan to like

[01:00:07] regroup at certain points but I had no way to communicate with them to tell them that

[01:00:11] I was not okay and it was really scary and so I I laid down I was in the shade and I ended

[01:00:18] falling asleep for about half an hour and I came to because a car was driving by and they

[01:00:23] yelled out the window like I forget like they basically said are you okay in Spanish a number

[01:00:28] of times like because I clearly was not okay you were so not okay I was so not okay and thankfully

[01:00:34] I was able to tell them you know I came to and had what thankfully I had plenty of water

[01:00:38] but I was able to tell them yes I'm fine I'm going back to town if you see my friends who were probably

[01:00:44] 10 miles ahead by this point like give them this note and I wrote them a note just saying hey

[01:00:48] I'll meet you guys in I forget what town we're going to toe and I'll meet you in todo Santos

[01:00:52] like I don't know how I'm gonna get there but I'll figure it out and so just like kind of

[01:00:57] this epically challenging moment of I can't do this ride like it is unsafe for me to continue

[01:01:02] this ride yeah what are my next steps and so turned around thankfully I was going downhill at this point

[01:01:08] made it back to the main to the town and found internet service and realized okay how can I

[01:01:14] I'm in Mexico I have seven days what am I gonna do and so for the next couple days you know I

[01:01:20] end up taking the bus to toto Santos and met my friends there and we camped on the beach and

[01:01:25] you know they explained like no it was really challenging for all of us and I kind of made

[01:01:29] a plan that I was just going to do the rest of the week by myself you know they were much more

[01:01:33] experienced bike packers in just a different level of physical shape and even though we

[01:01:38] are planning to quote unquote party pace it my party pace was not the same as theirs

[01:01:43] and so it was you know the physical challenge of I can't do this ride and the mental challenge

[01:01:50] of I thought this trip was going to go one way in my mind and I was going to be spending

[01:01:54] with these people and to have to pivot and say well I guess I'm going to the next seven

[01:01:58] days by myself and it ended up being kind of an epic adventure I took the bus to a couple more

[01:02:03] places along the route and then I said screw it I'm going to get a really cheap airbnb in Cabo

[01:02:09] and just I had an incredible five-day vacation in Cabo on the cheap but yeah I think I think that

[01:02:15] was probably one of my biggest both physical and emotional and mental challenges was was that

[01:02:21] bikepacking and then regrouping and reframing everything to still make lemonade out of lemons

[01:02:28] yeah I mean I'm still kind of stunned and trying to get over the fact that you solved

[01:02:31] the problem without a smartphone how does that happen anymore well okay to be fair when I

[01:02:39] you know I turned back I turned around went back into the town I got a super cheap motel I think

[01:02:44] it was like 10 bucks and they had wi-fi there and so I guess I did technically have a smartphone

[01:02:50] but those initial steps of like okay I'm gonna write a note to these people I know it does

[01:02:55] make you be so much more resourceful when you don't have a smartphone can't communicate to these

[01:02:59] folks and it's like it's gonna be okay like they all knew that I was self-sufficient I knew that they

[01:03:03] were self-sufficient and we had all kind of agreed going out there that like if we get separated

[01:03:07] like we at the end of the day we are all on our own and so we all had like the SOS like the

[01:03:12] spot tracker device and all of that and so that's smart yeah yeah no that's impressive

[01:03:18] how how so I man I really admire your resourcefulness just from a practical perspective of like

[01:03:24] I'm gonna write hand write a note like hashtag analog life that's amazing yeah and then also

[01:03:29] getting yourself back to town and not loss on me either is just making that decision to stop and

[01:03:35] recognizing you know and not pushing yourself past that point because it could have been you

[01:03:40] know it could have been that you were like no I I have to push through this because I think

[01:03:44] that's an easy mentality to fall into in cycling because yeah that is something that's

[01:03:48] very very common is like oh look at these tour de France riders who are like bloodied and

[01:03:53] mangled in a barbed wire fence and they get back on their bike and they keep going like

[01:03:56] that's the cool thing to do to really stop and and say no like this is serious I need to take

[01:04:01] care of myself like that takes a lot of fortitude right there yeah it takes a lot of just

[01:04:06] throwing your ego away and yes I wish we heard more stories of failure and more stories of

[01:04:12] changing plans because I mean that's that's what normal people have to do you know we don't

[01:04:18] have a crew of medics looking out for us or you know I even just think about people on the great

[01:04:23] divide which is on my list of rides to do but you know just pushing through unsafe conditions or

[01:04:31] and those are the stories that get the airtime and I wish we heard more of just the normal no

[01:04:36] I quit or I turned around or I regrouped or I went five miles in one day and that was fine

[01:04:42] yeah but those aren't the sexy stories and those aren't the exciting stories

[01:04:46] no but they might be the smartest ones honestly yeah yeah yeah I can think of so many times

[01:04:53] over my career where there were moments where I really should have stopped and I didn't and I

[01:04:57] look back on it now and I just think that was so stupid and the later half of my career when I

[01:05:01] was older arguably wiser I made I made more calls like that where it was like no this is

[01:05:07] stupid I'm not I'm not doing this and I agree with you I wish I wish we talked more about

[01:05:11] that because glorifying pushing through when it comes at genuine harm to mental physical and

[01:05:18] emotional health it's not okay and it's not yeah we want to glorify yeah you know I just

[01:05:22] read a story of an experience quote unquote experienced hiker who was found frozen to death

[01:05:27] on like a day hike in Vermont last week and nowhere in that story did they mention you

[01:05:34] know it was sub zero freezing temperatures and it was unsafe to hike at this time

[01:05:39] it was like oh this guy just went out for a day hike and he was so experienced and then

[01:05:43] he called for help and then they couldn't rescue him in time and it's like yeah you might be

[01:05:47] experienced and you might have the physical fitness but sometimes there are just physical

[01:05:52] conditions when we should not be going outside and we should not be taking on these adventures

[01:05:57] yeah you hear stories like that and you can typically kind of trace back like okay well

[01:06:01] this was maybe not the smartest decision and then this was maybe not the smartest

[01:06:04] decision and any one of those decisions in and of itself was like maybe questionable was you know

[01:06:10] maybe gray area but probably not that bad but when you start to stack them up yeah then you end up

[01:06:15] in potentially catastrophic circumstances and yeah and for me on that trip it it was just a you

[01:06:21] know decision-making process of okay the next water refill is 15 miles ahead it's 85 degrees

[01:06:27] out here and it's nine o'clock in the morning it's only going to get hotter I'm already dizzy

[01:06:32] like you know when you start putting all those things together it's like there's no combination

[01:06:37] for success here like this is going to end poorly if I don't change what I'm doing drastically

[01:06:44] yeah so how did you how did you manage the emotional side of that because that couldn't have

[01:06:48] been easy I tried to just reframe it as well I wasn't prepared for this uh as I thought I was

[01:06:55] and so just taking eating a big old slice of humble pie honestly and then trying to make

[01:06:59] the best of it so like I said I ended up taking the bus to toro santos and then I took the bus

[01:07:05] further up the peninsula to oh my god I'm totally blanking basically another town that was on the

[01:07:10] same route and I realized this isn't how I want to be spending my quote unquote vacation time

[01:07:15] because I was still I'm still working in corporate America at that time and basically

[01:07:19] just kind of going back to the drawing board and saying okay this is my circumstances how do

[01:07:23] I make this better and I guess getting those like quick dopamine hits again of you know making the

[01:07:30] decision to go to Cabo getting the cheap air bnb I got on tinder and I went on a couple like

[01:07:34] spontaneous dates and so yeah I think accepting that my trip was not going to be like I thought

[01:07:40] it was and it was it was kind of embarrassing because I had a number of sponsors who were

[01:07:44] expecting me to write blog posts about my time on the cape divide or the you know the cape

[01:07:49] loop and having to go back to them and saying actually this isn't quite what happened you still

[01:07:55] want the content and a couple of them were like no don't worry about it like have fun whatever yeah

[01:08:01] but yeah I think just that reframe and then finding other ways to to fill my bucket

[01:08:06] and yeah I still had intense jealousy you know Ryan dozer just came out with a video of his

[01:08:10] time on the cape loop and there's sections that I'm just like oh man I wish I could have

[01:08:16] experienced that and so it's still on my list of trips to do but I also know that it might

[01:08:22] adventure might have to look different than other peoples because it does take me longer

[01:08:26] to ride places you know as a bigger-bodied person I have I need to consume more water

[01:08:31] there's just some some realities of my cycling experience that might make my adventure have

[01:08:36] to look different yeah that reframing technique that is not easy to do and that is definitely

[01:08:42] a skill where do you think that you learned how to do that and how to do that kind of on the fly

[01:08:46] the way you did I had kind of a crappy childhood you know we moved a number of times there were

[01:08:52] often circumstances that were out of my control and so I think I've just kind of been forced

[01:08:59] to do to reframe my mentality a number of times to where it's like you know I could

[01:09:04] sit in this misery of being the new kid in school yet again or I can reframe this

[01:09:09] and say it's an opportunity to reinvent myself or to find new friends or to try a new sport or to

[01:09:15] to try something new so I think yeah I learned it out of necessity and then it's kind of become one of

[01:09:20] my my best skills I think is is reframing things it's interesting to me now as an adult as I

[01:09:26] reflect back on my life and my childhood how a lot of things that I sort of feel like oh I just

[01:09:30] had a neck for this thing I now look back and I'm like oh or yep or that period of my life when

[01:09:39] this was happening and that was maybe actually like a really effective you know coping strategy

[01:09:44] it's so interesting is that something that you've reflected on more as an adult or do you think

[01:09:49] you were aware of it as as it was happening uh definitely came on as an adult um through a

[01:09:54] lot of therapy you know I used to just say oh I'm I'm resilient and I had a therapist

[01:09:59] you know tell me are you yes you're resilient but it's because you had to be it was a survival technique

[01:10:04] and so yeah yeah realizing that as an adult like oh I'm really good at making friends or

[01:10:09] I'm really and I think this plays into all bodies on bikes hugely is I often felt excluded or you

[01:10:16] know I often felt like I was I was the outsider and whether that's because you know I was the only

[01:10:20] Jewish kid in my school or you know one of the few bigger bodied kids I I was always

[01:10:25] keenly aware of who was included and who was not and I think that has hugely impacted my approach

[01:10:34] to things as an adult and my intentionality in creating all bodies on bikes and how we

[01:10:39] lead rides and just how we talk to people and how uh how I interact with the world

[01:10:44] so I think what started out as a survival technique has become one of my superpowers

[01:10:48] honestly yeah big time big time and here's to good therapists right I mean

[01:10:53] nothing like a therapy seriously seriously although I will say for a long time I lied to my therapist

[01:11:00] which is so silly but it was just something I had to work through you know I've been a

[01:11:04] a people pleaser my entire life and so I became really good at saying what I thought they wanted

[01:11:08] to hear and thankfully I finally had one that was like you're not telling me the truth right

[01:11:13] now and I don't know why that's the case but I'm going to continue to tell me or tell

[01:11:17] you that you're not telling the truth until we get there I feel that so hard I I felt like growing

[01:11:23] up I had just a lot of social pressure you know not from any person or anybody in particular but

[01:11:29] just in general of like the most important thing is to be likable and therefore do whatever you can

[01:11:36] to make sure that people like around you like you and do whatever you can to not disappoint

[01:11:40] anyone and I it's funny that you said that because it just brought me back I'm like oh yeah

[01:11:45] I totally did that too like my first years in therapy I was fully spinning things because I wanted

[01:11:51] I wanted my therapist I wanted to be the patient that my therapist walked away from they were like

[01:11:56] oh that's my favorite patient like exactly like on a quest to be the favorite patient not on a quest

[01:12:00] to like deal with my own stuff I still struggle with it you know like uprooting my life and

[01:12:07] moving to Bentonville I think I'm just now starting to come out of that people pleasing

[01:12:12] because I wanted people to like me I wanted approval I wanted to be included with the the

[01:12:18] change makers and the people driving cycling culture and I'm starting to realize that like

[01:12:23] that might not be where change gets made and I'm kind of beating my head against a wall

[01:12:30] trying to get them to like me and to be included when there's a whole population of folks who

[01:12:36] don't give a crap about what's cool but who want to ride bikes and want to feel included

[01:12:40] and that's where I should be focusing my efforts I'll be damned who likes me and who doesn't

[01:12:44] you know like it really doesn't matter it doesn't but it's so much easier said than done right yeah

[01:12:50] yeah especially when it feels like they hold the keys to power into resources and to making

[01:12:55] change happen but it's like how do I balance those two while serving my community and the

[01:13:00] folks who who need all bodies on bikes and you know the folks who have the keys to the

[01:13:06] castle as it might be yeah and while preserving your own mental health and quality of life I mean

[01:13:13] there's that part yeah oh it's so fun it's a lot it's so fun this brings up such a good point

[01:13:22] and this is we talk a lot about inclusion and I'm sure that folks listening to this podcast

[01:13:26] have definitely heard you know DEI diversity equity inclusion and we're talking about

[01:13:30] including bigger bodies all bodies all body sizes in cycling but there's a huge difference

[01:13:36] between inclusion and belonging right yeah yeah and this is something that I think about a lot because

[01:13:42] you know I think inclusion is the first step it's it's being invited to the group ride it's being

[01:13:46] invited to the conversation but belonging is knowing that you can bring your whole self

[01:13:51] that you don't have to worry about being left behind it's like no they know that I'm slow

[01:13:57] they know that you know these are these are my opinions on things or this is

[01:14:01] what I bring to the table and you know belonging is being able to say those things and having your

[01:14:07] opinion heard and listened to and so you know what we strive for with all bodies on bikes is a sense

[01:14:12] of belonging that these spaces were designed with you in mind and that you can bring your full

[01:14:18] authentic self to an all bodies on bikes event or to a meetup or you know whatever it might be

[01:14:23] and that yeah you feel included but you also feel like this is for me I belong here

[01:14:28] mm-hmm and it's a fine line I feel like I can I can feel it inside when I'm included for the

[01:14:36] sake of being included versus that's like no I they actually want me to be there yeah feeling

[01:14:41] belonging somebody I apologize if I had the reference I would share but I don't remember it

[01:14:46] if I remember it we'll put it in the show notes but I heard somebody somebody somewhere

[01:14:50] say that inclusion is being invited to the dance belonging is being asked to dance

[01:14:56] mm yep and I feel like that's a really good analogy because it's it you did an excellent job of

[01:15:01] articulating it and it's just it's um yeah like getting the invite is one thing and being there

[01:15:08] is one thing but being there and then feeling awkward about being there is not it's not

[01:15:13] belonging what are some things that let's say maybe folks who are already involved in their

[01:15:19] local communities can do that you've seen work in terms of increasing opportunities for belonging

[01:15:25] ooh this is a good question I wish I had like answers ready to go I think it's making an effort

[01:15:31] to get to know folks that are there you know as simple as having a conversation as asking

[01:15:37] someone's pronouns you know getting to know their story remembering their name when they come back

[01:15:43] a second time that they're not just you know another number that goes on your grant reports

[01:15:47] if we had 36 people at 18 events or whatever it might be but learning their stories incorporating

[01:15:53] their feedback into into future events asking their opinions on things setting aside your ego and your

[01:16:00] ideas about how something should look and you know getting that feedback from the folks

[01:16:04] that you're inviting and actually taking into account yeah I think those are those are all

[01:16:08] things that can be done and there's there's no one magic cure all but I think it takes

[01:16:14] genuinely caring and you know if you're just inviting somebody so that you have a black person

[01:16:19] or a fat person at your event don't do it like you know actively wanting us to be there

[01:16:26] and ensuring that we have space to be ourselves that there's clothing that fits us that there's

[01:16:31] chairs that fit our bodies that there's it's a very intricate detailed question and again

[01:16:37] there's not there's not one right answer no the best way I can say it no I think that's

[01:16:42] that's a great answer in of itself because there's so much nuance and going back to what

[01:16:46] we were talking about earlier there's no one right answer right because belonging in one community

[01:16:50] might look one way and belonging in another might look different do you can you think of

[01:16:55] it if you can't that's totally okay but are there any like myths that you find yourself

[01:17:00] having to bust like over and over about increasing belonging and cycling yeah um I think the biggest

[01:17:05] one is that people that are slow are beginners um that's a good one it doesn't necessarily

[01:17:11] you know it ties in indirectly to belonging and inclusion but if I have one hill to die on

[01:17:17] I think it will be that like not everybody who's slow is a beginner and not every beginner is slow

[01:17:23] and so I think just using better language to describe our rides you know I want to be very

[01:17:30] clear being there's nothing wrong with being a beginner we all started somewhere and there are

[01:17:35] many sports and activities that I am a beginner at and I will probably remain a beginner because

[01:17:39] it's just not something that I'm going to dedicate time to so off the top nothing wrong with being

[01:17:44] a beginner but nothing makes me angrier than the slowest pace ride being labeled a beginner ride

[01:17:51] when that might not be the case so I think I think that's the biggest one is just people

[01:17:55] make so many assumptions about people in bigger bodies being beginners or just because we're

[01:18:00] slow that we must be a beginner and dispelling those I think can be really hard yeah and I

[01:18:05] think that goes for a lot of efforts to bring people into the sport is assuming that or outreach

[01:18:12] efforts right like that it's about bringing people in who are beginners but oftentimes it's

[01:18:17] people who they're not necessarily beginners but they've left the sport because it wasn't a place

[01:18:21] where they felt belonging yeah welcoming welcoming them back in is not giving them a beginner clinic

[01:18:27] yeah exactly the way to include them and generate that that sense of belonging yeah

[01:18:33] one of the things that our western massachusetts chapter has done and actually our kansas city

[01:18:37] chapter is about to do it but they're they're going to go on some longer rides that are going to be

[01:18:42] inclusive they are no drop but they're not necessarily beginner focused you know we're

[01:18:47] going we're going to go 40 miles fully loaded bike packing and yes there is a space for you

[01:18:52] but you do need to have these skills to get there and so I love that you know just kind of

[01:18:57] disrupting the myth that you know bigger people are beginners we only like to go five

[01:19:00] miles at a time and it's like no we can ride centuries we can go bike packing we can do whatever

[01:19:06] it just might take us a little bit longer or look a little different than like

[01:19:09] a traditional standardized cyclist yeah so you are a shining example of somebody who has seen the

[01:19:17] need for community that didn't exist yet and who has gone out and just done the work to start

[01:19:21] building these communities into existence which I love and I just want to see more of this

[01:19:26] everywhere was there a moment that sort of clarified this as a specific goal of yours or

[01:19:31] something that like turned this from idea into action for you yes so I had been doing organizing

[01:19:36] in Seattle bike advocacy around you know getting more women trans femme folks on the bikes especially

[01:19:42] into like the bike adventure space bike packing that sort of thing and in 2018 there was this

[01:19:48] group called the the WTF bike explorers they've since rebranded to the radical adventure riders

[01:19:54] but they had this summit in Montana and I went and there were all these incredible conversations

[01:19:59] about you know diversity and equity and belonging and how do we get more folks more representation

[01:20:05] in our little corner of the cycling world and I realized as we were having these conversations

[01:20:10] you know we were talking about oh what marino underwear do you wear or what rain jacket

[01:20:14] and all these things and every brand that we talked about every group were not size inclusive

[01:20:20] and I just remember repeatedly thinking oh yeah that brand doesn't come my size

[01:20:24] that wouldn't work that wouldn't work and on the last day we had this opportunity to do kind of

[01:20:31] self-led workshops and I raised my hand and I said hey I'd love to talk about size inclusion

[01:20:35] in cycling and about 10 people came to my group and we just started talking about the

[01:20:39] barriers that we faced and I realized holy shit I'm not the only one facing these issues

[01:20:45] there is an opportunity here to educate and to do better and honestly my driving

[01:20:51] focus at that point was clothing I didn't have a raincoat like a cycling raincoat I think I had

[01:20:56] one pair of shorts but I was just like this is not right and so that was really the galvanizing

[01:21:01] moment that's amazing so you saw the need and then you also saw that there was kind of like

[01:21:06] a critical mass of other people yeah yeah yeah and I think part of it too was the energy

[01:21:11] around these other inclusive communities that were forming and you know finding success and kind

[01:21:17] of building their own pathways and realizing that like we didn't have to stay within these boundaries

[01:21:23] that like the traditional cycling world had set up for us you know like we didn't have to join the

[01:21:27] the cycling club that all wore lycra we could wear jean shorts we could you know load up our

[01:21:31] bikes and go into the mountains and do our own thing and so it was almost like a an impetus to

[01:21:37] I don't have to ask for permission to do this like I can start this on my own

[01:21:40] I love that and I wanted to ask about how intersectionality has informed your work and

[01:21:45] you've already done a really good job of illustrating examples that through this conversation

[01:21:49] but I think this is another good example of that maybe it seems that seeing the advocacy work

[01:21:55] of other groups and other marginalized groups and people in the cycling industry

[01:21:59] was part of what galvanized your work is that an accurate way of framing 100%

[01:22:03] yeah yeah and then just even learning from other groups you know black girls do bike huge

[01:22:08] organization that has women of all sizes and shapes and income levels and seeing how they're

[01:22:13] getting organized and actually like a ride for racial justice has informed a lot of the work

[01:22:18] that we're doing and so Kaylee my co-founder and I we try and be keenly aware of our privilege

[01:22:23] in this we are what are considered small fats so there's like this size spectrum or the fat

[01:22:28] spectrum and you know I think about if I weighed 100 pounds more than I do now would these bike brands

[01:22:34] take me seriously would I be sponsored you know would I be would I have the same opportunities

[01:22:39] and so bringing in that intersectionality you know there's also a lot of intersectionality

[01:22:43] with the disabled community a lot of the barriers bigger body folks face people with

[01:22:47] disabilities face and how do we how do we break those down and so recognizing that like

[01:22:52] my lived experience is not the same as somebody else who might have the same height and weight

[01:22:56] as me but you know is a black woman like our lived experiences are very different and so recognizing

[01:23:02] that like their experience is just as valid and there might be additional barriers that I can

[01:23:07] advocate for with my privilege if that makes sense makes so much sense I think there's so much

[01:23:12] that I can take from this that our listeners can take from this because none of us is a monolith

[01:23:17] and yeah so much of the encouraging thing about this I think is a lot of the solutions

[01:23:23] that we're looking towards and we're working towards are solutions that solve things for

[01:23:27] a number of people who have been excluded from the cycling industry I hate that we always use the

[01:23:32] passive tense in that because there's a lot more intentionality in that exclusion but

[01:23:37] it's just a little too complicated to point fingers from an opportunity standpoint like yeah

[01:23:42] it is not a scarcity game like yes the the pie of cycling or the pizza of cycling is like

[01:23:48] absolutely huge and I don't care why you're riding a bike I mean that sounds bad but you know

[01:23:54] if you're riding your e-bike to commute to work or you're riding a mountain bike or you're riding

[01:23:58] you know whatever it might be there are so many ways to ride a bike that like my whole goal is

[01:24:04] to ensure that you can do it safely and with the right equipment and I think a lot of us

[01:24:09] in the cycling world are coming from a scarcity mindset of like oh no but bikes are only a

[01:24:14] good thing you know like they're a climate answer their community answer like they solve so many

[01:24:19] challenges that like I don't know I think those of us that find ourselves being like oh no

[01:24:24] there's another inclusive group are they gonna step on my toes like no not at all if anything

[01:24:30] let's like let's dance together and step on each other's toes and invite more people to

[01:24:33] the dance it's a really messy metaphor but you know what I mean like more people being

[01:24:38] included is not a bad thing in any way shape or form no this is not a zero sum game this is

[01:24:44] not a zero sum game this is a more than marry your situation which is a super cheesy way of putting

[01:24:49] that I can't believe off the top of my head there but yeah I think there's no such thing as too

[01:24:55] much sense of belonging like even as you know I'm a profess Brody I'm not good off-road

[01:25:00] but I love riding off-road I love trying different things and to me it's like they're all different

[01:25:04] flavors of fun and there's you know as you're describing there's no right or wrong way to

[01:25:09] ride a bike there's no right or wrong bike I love I think your slogan is one of the best I've ever

[01:25:13] heard for anything related to cycling ever it's you know all bodies on bikes are good and all

[01:25:18] bikes are good or I'm not quite getting it right yeah all bodies are good buddies yes all bikes

[01:25:22] are good bikes and all rides should be celebrated this I love that and I mean like

[01:25:26] little caveat there as long as your bike is safe and working um like then it's a good bike

[01:25:32] fair point fair point yeah there's just there's so much hand-wringing over e-bikes and is it a real

[01:25:38] bike ride if you did it on an e-bike like who cares yeah it's not taking away from your experience

[01:25:44] at all no I'm a huge fan of e-bikes for what I love e-bikes but that's only one example um yeah

[01:25:51] no I think they're you're right there's just the hand-ring is totally unnecessary bikes are awesome

[01:25:56] and bikes are all fun yeah I love it so much yeah what is something that has really surprised

[01:26:01] you about building community in the cycling world I think the most surprising thing about

[01:26:06] building community is how easy it has been in some regards of people are hungry for inclusive rides

[01:26:18] they're hungry to feel like they're a part of something and we put out our first Instagram post

[01:26:24] this was back in Seattle and this was just before all bodies on bikes existed as an

[01:26:28] organization it was just a concept people just showed up it wasn't necessarily the folks that I

[01:26:34] expected to show up it was you know people who look like they're in a traditional body

[01:26:38] or who ride a fancy bicycle but people are really and you know part of this could have been

[01:26:43] because we were coming out of COVID and lots of folks were hungry to just be in community again

[01:26:48] but just the response has been overwhelmingly positive I think that's such a great answer that

[01:26:53] it was easier than you may have thought what crossed my mind earlier when you were talking about

[01:26:58] you know all the different things that bikes can be to people I think also one of the things

[01:27:02] that can be an antidote to loneliness yes and what you were just describing really reminded me of

[01:27:07] that because I think especially as adults it's really hard to make friends like yeah we're not

[01:27:12] in school anymore we're not thrown in with like people our age and you know on a daily basis

[01:27:16] like just like no serendipitously running into somebody with whom you have something in common

[01:27:20] is not easy no especially coming out of COVID and like I stopped drinking within this past year

[01:27:27] and like bars and breweries were a big sense of my friend group and so yeah bikes have been

[01:27:32] truly a saving grace for me yeah one thing that I do want to talk about real briefly is

[01:27:37] you know we throw around the word community pretty loosey-goosey and I think I think there's a

[01:27:42] real distinction between a group and a community it again it's similar to like belonging and

[01:27:47] inclusion where it's a fine line and it's a little bit gray at times but to me the true definition of

[01:27:53] a community is people who care about each other's well-being so you know I think about if I'm on

[01:27:59] a group ride and somebody gets a flat tire are we stopping to make sure that person has what they

[01:28:05] need that they get taken care of if yes then maybe it is a community you know do we do we

[01:28:10] care that everybody has the proper nutrition or food or whatever it might take or is it just

[01:28:15] a group ride where we just show up and we ride bikes together for two hours and we're along

[01:28:20] the same route together and it's a group ride which nothing wrong with that but I wouldn't

[01:28:24] necessarily call that a community you know and I think the word gets bandied around a lot of like

[01:28:28] oh we're such a great community look at all this and it's like at the end of the day do we truly

[01:28:32] care about each other's well-being or are we just people who share a common interest

[01:28:36] so I really like that definition too because I think it balances you know you don't have to

[01:28:41] be best friends with everyone in your community to care about their well-being yep like I exactly

[01:28:48] like I might be on a ride with somebody and it might be a large group and they might have a flat

[01:28:53] and I might not know them yeah but I can still care that to check and make sure do you have

[01:28:59] what you need to change your flat and do you need a hand to change your flat can I you know

[01:29:01] is there anything that I have that I can loan you to make sure that you get safely back on the

[01:29:04] road and we can continue together like I think it can be that like there's a continuum right

[01:29:10] like you don't have to be best friends with everybody but you can even from afar care and

[01:29:15] demonstrate 100% and communities can be transient you know I think some of the races I've been to

[01:29:21] where the organizers or the folks promoting it have done a phenomenal job of creating that sense of

[01:29:28] well-being and caring for each other and really making it explicit they're like

[01:29:32] hey this is our community for the weekend whereas other times it's like no we're all just here

[01:29:37] participating the same activity and one isn't necessarily inherently better than the other

[01:29:42] you know I would argue that you know when you have those community building events

[01:29:46] people do feel more of a sense of belonging and inclusion and want to go back

[01:29:51] but groups are just fine too yeah it's a different experience and there's a different

[01:29:55] set of expectations so on that note I want to just bring up you've got this amazing

[01:30:00] program that you're you're working on wheels of welcome let's talk about that for

[01:30:03] me oh I'm so excited for it and actually so it's with Unbound Gravel and it's actually a pilot

[01:30:08] program so if it goes well we'll be doing it with other lifetime events but the goal was I saw this

[01:30:14] need so I did the 50 mile three years ago and then I did the 100 mile for the last two years

[01:30:19] and it still sticks out in my mind when I did the 50 mile that the marketing of it was like

[01:30:24] this is a fun a family fun ride bring out the whole family and I saw people who took

[01:30:30] that to heart and had no idea what they were getting themselves into you know people who were on their

[01:30:36] old mountain bike that hadn't seen the light of day in 20 years and here they were taking on 50

[01:30:41] miles of gravel in Emporia Kansas which if you've ridden Unbound you know it is challenging

[01:30:47] and even for those 25 in the 50 mile it is self-supported the course is not marked

[01:30:52] and there's just some like basic level of preparedness that you need to have going

[01:30:56] into that and so I pitched it to lifetime I said hey I would love to do a program for the 25 and 50

[01:31:03] mile distances to help folks feel prepared and ensure success because you know Unbound is already

[01:31:10] kind of like I think of it like the Super Bowl of gravel it's like the big kickoff to the season

[01:31:15] every media outlet is there like whoever wins it that can be like a fast track to sponsorships

[01:31:21] you know it's a big thing and since they added the 25 and the 50 mile I see that as kind of like a

[01:31:26] gateway to folks who might be gravel curious or event curious but like oh is this really right for

[01:31:33] me and 25 and 50 miles especially there it's not that hilly I mean there is some elevation

[01:31:38] but it's not that bad it's a really approachable distance but there is work that needs to happen

[01:31:44] to make it feel approachable and to make it feel like you had a successful day so basically

[01:31:49] I pitched a lifetime and I said hey I want to do this can we do it and they said yeah there's no money

[01:31:54] for it but maybe there will be and I was like okay don't really need to be taking on another project

[01:31:59] that doesn't pay me but I believe in it so much that I'm doing it and so basically where we're at

[01:32:04] right now the lottery just closed we'll be sending out an email to everyone who got selected for

[01:32:09] the 25 and the 50 and offering this program to them and so basically it will have two webinars

[01:32:15] where we'll go over all those things I just talked about you know bike and tire selection

[01:32:20] what you need to carry what to expect day of hydration nutrition navigation just all those

[01:32:26] things that like you can figure it out on your own but it's a little bit easier if somebody is like

[01:32:31] hey here's what ride with GPS is here's how to use it all those things and then when we get

[01:32:37] to Emporia we're going to do a shakeout ride specifically for those folks because oftentimes

[01:32:42] shakeout rides are like 20 miles long but if your event distance is 25 miles you're not going to do a

[01:32:48] 20 mile shakeout ride let's be real and then just a happy hour as well so hopefully these folks who

[01:32:52] have you know been on these calls together we're also going to have I don't know if it's going

[01:32:56] to be Facebook or Slack or what it's going to be at some sort of community where folks can

[01:33:00] ask each other questions and kind of create this community and then when we get to the ground

[01:33:05] in Emporia having a meetup so folks are like I know you I know you we're in this together

[01:33:10] I love this so much so I I did do Unbound one year and it is gnarly it is

[01:33:17] really challenging and I don't say that to be discouraging anyway it's just that what you've

[01:33:21] described if you're prepared it can be phenomenal and empowering and fulfilling but if you're not

[01:33:26] prepared it is extraordinarily remote and it is gravel and the gravel is rough gravel like for

[01:33:33] folks who aren't familiar gravel cycling is where you're not riding on the road and you're

[01:33:37] not riding on mountain bike trails but you're riding on roads that are unpaved and those can

[01:33:41] run the gamut right I know I've ridden in Vermont gravel and sometimes the Vermont quote-unquote

[01:33:45] air quotes gravel roads are so much smoother than the actual paved roads yeah say with Colorado

[01:33:52] I'm like this isn't gravel this is champagne like yeah but then you get out to Emporia Kansas

[01:33:57] where this event takes place and it is really really challenging and rough terrain which is

[01:34:03] totally doable but it was extraordinarily challenging for me and I was coming into it with the benefit

[01:34:09] of having been able to pick the brains of a bunch of athletes who had either you know

[01:34:14] completed it successfully or even won it and I could not believe how much kind of logistical

[01:34:20] planning went into it to make it a successful thing and that doesn't have to be something

[01:34:25] that scares somebody away from the event which I love because you're you're basically saying

[01:34:30] like nope let me give you all the tips and tricks so that you know exactly because there's

[01:34:34] there's nothing worse than having folks go to an event that you love and I love Unbound and last

[01:34:39] year was a prime example and just hearing people complain about it and just bitch and moan of like

[01:34:45] oh it was so muddy and it's like no that's what this event is you know you are out on these

[01:34:50] farm roads that are unpaved un-maintained and if you get rain you might have a mile of mud

[01:34:56] that you're gonna have to contend with and so I don't I don't know I kind of see it as my like

[01:35:00] public service that I love this event so much and I love just gravel cycling in general that I want

[01:35:06] other folks to if they're gonna try it to have a good experience yeah yeah because you've been

[01:35:12] there and you've seen how fulfilling and amazing it can be yeah to see somebody on the exact

[01:35:18] same course on the exact same day come away with you know like a negative takeaway it's yeah

[01:35:24] or to just have such an awful experience that they quit yeah so many people last year and granted

[01:35:29] there was kind of extenuating mud last year but people's whose bikes were still working just

[01:35:35] throwing in the towel and you know sitting on the side of the road for four hours until their

[01:35:39] sag person could come pick them up and it's like you know it's it's the mental preparation I

[01:35:43] think is 90% of the battle yeah yeah and that's you know just setting expectations right of

[01:35:49] what can happen out there and people might come into it thinking like oh I'm gonna be like

[01:35:53] on these dry dusty roads yeah you're not expecting to hike a mile in mud yeah and I can't think of

[01:35:59] a better person to help people mentally prepare for an event like this thank you yeah it's it's funny

[01:36:04] it took me a long time and I'm still coming to terms with the fact that people see me do something

[01:36:09] and like oh if Marley can do that I can do it which is a very humbling thing to come to

[01:36:16] terms with because like I don't know I think I'm pretty badass yeah but when people use you

[01:36:21] as a benchmark of like oh well if this person could do it then I can do it it's it's a little humbling

[01:36:27] not gonna lie yeah I think those folks also like they see that it took me 14 hours to do mid-south

[01:36:33] or 16 hours to do unbound and they assume that I'm not training or that I'm not out there

[01:36:38] preparing for it and nothing could be further from the truth it's just that's what a hundred

[01:36:43] mile bike ride looks like for me it takes that much time yeah yeah and another way of looking at

[01:36:48] and I'm sure this is the case for some folks is that they're looking at you know the top people

[01:36:52] I as an example I was coaching an athlete who was looking to do a local road race and

[01:36:57] she's really excited about the road race so she went on Strava and looked up the Strava files

[01:37:01] from the previous year's race and immediately compared that to her own speeds that she was

[01:37:06] getting in her training rides and I'm like well you you're comparing apples and oranges

[01:37:10] because when they're in a race number one they're racing so they're going to be going

[01:37:14] faster but number two they all have a draft so you can go that fast and probably not be working

[01:37:20] as hard as you think you would have to work to go that fast so she just had built up in her mind

[01:37:24] that you know she was had told herself a story that the standard of this event was here and she

[01:37:29] was not there and therefore she couldn't make it and I think most of the media that we see

[01:37:34] around like these big marquee events is devoted to those top performing athletes who are duking

[01:37:40] out at the pointy end of the race and people look at those folks and as aspirational as they are

[01:37:45] they're very unrelatable so looking to you I think for some I think in some ways it's really

[01:37:50] complementary because they're just kind of like oh Marley has taken this pressure away

[01:37:54] I don't have to be contending for the podium to get something out of this event

[01:37:59] I think that that's a you know and and maybe other people are using you as like a benchmark

[01:38:03] in a way that's really unflattering too but I do think that there's something really

[01:38:06] powerful in being somebody who is clearly a spokesperson and a well-known figure who has

[01:38:12] the same kind of stature and platform as do those athletes who are you know competing for the podium

[01:38:18] and showing that this is an equally valid way of approaching the event you can go and just

[01:38:24] have fun thank you yeah I have to remind myself of that and then I have to remind myself

[01:38:29] oh yeah that's like what my sponsors are paying me for like that part it's literally

[01:38:34] my job is to make this approachable and to make other folks excited about spending their money

[01:38:40] to get into this thing so yeah you are 100 correct I just have to remind myself of that

[01:38:46] you're happy to help

[01:38:50] so what are some other events that you've you've done that you've really enjoyed and

[01:38:54] which ones do you want to go back to yeah I mean mid-south gravel is top of my brain right

[01:38:59] now because that's coming up in two short months and I love that one because they really live and

[01:39:04] die by the no rider left behind you know they throw a big DFL party if you're not from a DFL it's like

[01:39:10] dead effing last and I was lucky I guess to be that person last year but that ride just has such

[01:39:17] great vibes and Bobby Wintel gives amazing hugs steamboat gravel another huge one that I love

[01:39:22] they've really embraced all bodies on bikes and we've taken a team out there

[01:39:25] the last couple years grounded Nebraska on the totally opposite side of like production level

[01:39:31] it's hosted at a pumpkin farm and people camp out and it's oftentimes called like queer summer camp

[01:39:37] because it really it's like it's a bike event but it's so much more than just the bikes

[01:39:43] trying to think of some other ones uh you know when Ted and Laura King had rooted Vermont I

[01:39:48] was lucky to go to that and that was probably one of my hardest days on a bike

[01:39:52] because Vermont is really really hilly but I would totally go back because those vibes were immaculate

[01:39:58] wonderful and then you know it's funny we talked about mountain biking a little bit but

[01:40:02] Rome bike fest it's uh it's basically a big bike party for women trans non-binary folk

[01:40:08] and they used to have three locations this year it's just one but oh my god it is so much fun

[01:40:13] like epic dance party epic vendors just such good vibes and I don't know I feel like I belong

[01:40:20] but I don't consider myself a mountain biker and so it's just really cool to be in that space

[01:40:24] and watch folks who are so talented on bikes in such a different way than yourself just watch

[01:40:29] them shred Marley this has been such a fun conversation thank you for going deep with me

[01:40:34] on all this stuff and I want to thank you first and foremost for everything that you've done

[01:40:38] for cycling and for the cycling community and um I also want to thank your sponsors who are

[01:40:43] supporting your work so Marley is sponsored by Shimano Shredley Cannondale ride with GPS

[01:40:48] Twisted Spokes CBD and Osprey Packs so thank you very much to those those companies for seeing

[01:40:54] all of the value and brilliance that Marley brings to our communities into this industry and

[01:40:58] yeah just love to see it thank you thank you for this great conversation it can be hard to

[01:41:03] dive in any like bite sized sound pieces that people want so I appreciate this a little bit

[01:41:08] longer format and hope folks appreciate it too thank you Marley thanks Amber I just love the

[01:41:14] motto of all bodies on bikes all bodies are good bodies all bikes are good bikes and all rides

[01:41:19] should be celebrated there have been many times in my life where I felt I didn't belong in a group

[01:41:24] or community because of a story in my head that I didn't meet some imaginary criteria

[01:41:29] I'm not smart enough to belong here I'm not fast enough to belong here I don't have the right

[01:41:33] clothes or gear you get the idea as someone who loves bikes it breaks my heart when I

[01:41:39] encounter folks who love to ride but believe they don't belong because they imagine they

[01:41:43] don't meet some arbitrary set of standards that they've made up in their head we so often assume

[01:41:48] that we don't belong because it feels safer than the threat of being rejected it's important to step

[01:41:53] back and challenge those assumptions for ourselves as well as to do what we can to help

[01:41:58] others feel comfortable reaching out to connect and find belonging since speaking with Marley

[01:42:03] her line was Shredley has launched and we've linked it in the show notes along with her

[01:42:06] wheels of welcome project and other organizations she mentioned be sure to give her a follow

[01:42:11] and if you can make a donation to support all bodies on bikes thank you for joining us for today's

[01:42:17] episode if you loved today's show remember to subscribe and leave us a five star review the

[01:42:22] be a good wheel podcast is produced by our wizard behind the curtain Maxine Filivong find all

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