Mastery, Identity, and Turning Off to Turn On with Eliot Jackson

[00:00:00] I think that process, I need that process is about saying what is the correct process for me.

[00:00:04] And I think every athlete probably ends up exploring that deterministic side of things.

[00:00:09] Like I'm just going to train super hard and then you don't do well and you wonder why.

[00:00:12] And then you're like, oh, that's actually not what the process is for me.

[00:00:16] Like I need to have fun.

[00:00:18] I need to talk to people.

[00:00:20] I need to be friends with my fellow athletes.

[00:00:24] I need to read.

[00:00:25] I need to travel like all of that stuff.

[00:00:28] It's just if not more important than like picking up a weight and putting it down or whatever.

[00:00:36] That's decorated pioneer and professional downhill mountain biker, Elliot Jackson.

[00:00:41] Sharing how he discovered that his successes in the athlete relied as much on fun,

[00:00:46] connection, reading and travel, as much as and if not more than his physical training.

[00:00:52] He spent a decade competing professionally on the World Cup circuit and representing the United States.

[00:00:57] Elliot is now an analyst, commentator and host for Red Bull TV.

[00:01:02] In this thoughtful conversation, we find out how shifting his focus away from results has helped him earn his best results.

[00:01:09] And we go deep on what he means when he says, you have to turn off, to turn on.

[00:01:15] You're listening to The Be A Good Wheel Podcast, the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel.

[00:01:21] By digging into scientific research and personal stories about human potential and performance, I'm your host Amber Pierce.

[00:01:34] Today we're diving into the world of adrenaline and determination with a philosophical twist.

[00:01:39] Our guest has not only conquered some of the world's most technical trails but has also reshaped the landscape of mountain biking.

[00:01:46] Strap in because we're about to explore the extraordinary journey of Elliot Jackson.

[00:01:51] Elliot's story began at the age of four when he inherited a motocross bike from his older brother Andrew,

[00:01:57] igniting a passion that would set the wheels in motion for a remarkable life on two wheels.

[00:02:02] By 15, he had already clinched a handful of motocross national championship titles,

[00:02:07] but the allure of something new back end.

[00:02:10] At 18, Elliot shifted gears to downhill mountain bike racing and he soon found himself standing at the starting line of his first World Cup downhill involved a soleitally.

[00:02:19] How he got there is a wild story you won't want to miss.

[00:02:23] After a decade of racing the World Cup circuit and representing the US at multiple world championships,

[00:02:29] Elliot transitioned to the more fun events showcasing not only his prowess on the trails but also honing his skills as a race analyst.

[00:02:37] As one of the first Americans to race downhill mountain bike in Europe he blazed a trail for other athletes

[00:02:42] and more recently he established the Grow Cycling Foundation to create access and community encycling for folks underrepresented in the industry.

[00:02:51] Elliot Jackson's journey to becoming a pro mountain biker is nothing short of cinematic

[00:02:55] and indeed has come full circle as he can now be found on Red Bull TV bringing the performances and stories of other athletes to life.

[00:03:04] Elliot is a true polymath counting professional gaming music production and software development among the many roles he's filled with a penchant for voracious reading and deep reflection his insights cut deep much deeper than a summary of his accomplishments can portray.

[00:03:18] In this episode we hear from Elliot about how his journey from motocross to mountain biking and television have contributed to the many facets that make him not only a remarkable athlete but also a visionary force in the cycling world.

[00:03:31] We are here today with former professional downhill bike racer Elliot Jackson who is also now a commentator analyst expert for Red Bull and co-host of the Red Bull just ride podcast with Rob Warner welcome Elliott.

[00:03:49] Thank you Amber I know I never know how to introduce myself like which it's like which thing do I care about today but I'm super excited to talk to you.

[00:04:00] So many hats that you've worn over the years it's really fun so there's like there's just so much that we can dig into today I am really interested in.

[00:04:09] Your inner world and what it takes mentally to have competed at that level of downhill mountain biking which is really intense and kind of how that's evolved into this now post racing career of yours.

[00:04:26] And from the outside looking in downhill mountain bike seems pretty extreme and for folks who are not that familiar with this discipline let me just paint a quick picture.

[00:04:35] You're dropping down insanely steep terrain that is intentionally highly technical you have less than a few minutes to get from start to finish you're going as fast as you can.

[00:04:49] And especially made bike that has no motor and yet you're trying to propel it as quickly as you can you're getting up to speeds of what 80k an hour.

[00:04:56] And it's pretty wild and I don't know when I think of doing something like that I think you know of just fearlessness and I'm curious are you are you fearless was that

[00:05:13] something you needed to be to be a professional downhill mountain biker.

[00:05:19] That's a that's a way better description than I ever give so I'm going to steal some of that.

[00:05:25] Yeah it's so funny because I like just in general life like I'm very cautious like I'm super risk averse super low paying tolerance like I'm just not that that guy.

[00:05:41] And I think I think it's interesting you you kind of like paint that picture because I think from my entire career kind of what is it not so much

[00:05:54] struggled with it but

[00:05:56] that idea externally and I think a lot of the time even from the inside of teams or team managers like on one hand you have this idea of just

[00:06:06] kind of shut your brain off take a bunch of risks on your World Cup finals run like one of the thing that I always think is interesting is

[00:06:13] you should probably only be able to do your World Cup finals run one time because if not then you probably weren't quite at that limit.

[00:06:22] If you go over right like there's a big mistake or a crash if you go under then

[00:06:27] somebody else probably got a little bit closer than you.

[00:06:30] And so on one side you have this idea of like trying to get as close as you can to the limit and on the other

[00:06:36] side that's totally not who I am and not why I rode my bike. So yeah I don't I wouldn't say I'm fearless but I think

[00:06:48] down home mountain biking for me was really really really fun it was just like it was just satisfied I think like so much of

[00:06:58] my personality and like what I love to do on the bike.

[00:07:01] That's so interesting okay so on the one hand you're saying that's not who you were and yet on the other hand

[00:07:08] you're saying it satisfied exactly who you were. So can you explain that?

[00:07:16] Yeah totally so let's see I think it's interesting maybe even to go back to like how I got into

[00:07:26] downhill riding because I grew up you know I grew up like riding dirt jumps in my backyard

[00:07:33] with my brother building building stuff and neighborhood kids would come over and crash and stuff

[00:07:38] like that. And then I started racing motorcross and we were super super serious motorcross

[00:07:44] rode for Kawasaki like kind of dropped out of school and everything to do that we were like kind of

[00:07:52] professional amateur riders. Stop doing that when I was 15 or so and then I got my first

[00:07:59] downhill bike when I was 18 and it was like this combination of the bike like my dirt jumping

[00:08:05] background like even when I was racing motorcross and stuff like that I just loved riding BMX

[00:08:10] dirt jumps never race BMX but just loved riding and digging and stuff and down on mountain biking

[00:08:16] was the perfect combination between those two and so I just happened to meet this mountain

[00:08:25] biker and he at our dirt jumps we would make fun of him because mountain biking wasn't cool but

[00:08:31] he convinced me to go with him to ride mountain bikes and then we went up to Whistler and I was like

[00:08:37] this is really really cool I really love this and then he happened to be into racing and so he's

[00:08:45] showed me all of these races and these earth movies and this movie called Three Focus and I you know

[00:08:52] it's back when you had it on DVD and stuff I just like wore off the DVD and I was like this is

[00:08:57] really what I want to do I want to travel around and I want to race my bike and I want to go to

[00:09:04] these World Cup races the tracks look super cool and so the thing I think that was really enticing

[00:09:10] from the beginning was it was the whole like package right like racing racing on Europe racing

[00:09:17] these tracks and stuff like that doing something that was similar to what I had done and I think

[00:09:23] that that was the intro and then after that it kind of once I got into it it was more of an

[00:09:29] exploration of like why do I love this kind of thing oh that's interesting so you came in with a

[00:09:35] conviction that you love this and then it wasn't until after you were in it that you'd started to

[00:09:40] kind of dig into the why behind why you loved it totally I think so like I'll tell

[00:09:48] I'll tell this story actually of like my first year because I think looking back on it I was just

[00:09:54] so naive we yeah so yeah I got my first bike when I was 18 or so and I was like I don't really care

[00:10:02] about anything but going to ride a World Cup and you needed pro points and so I was well first

[00:10:07] you need a pro license and so I was in cap one or whatever you starting cap one and you have to

[00:10:12] win two cap one races so I went up to this one up to see Otter like big festival got on the

[00:10:20] won the race but it was funny because of dude in second was like man you're a little bit fast

[00:10:25] and I was like man I wouldn't have won you would have won I ended up getting my pro license and then

[00:10:32] after that you needed DCI points so I just went around with me and my mom like we didn't have any

[00:10:36] sponsors I didn't care about any sponsors or anything like that just like it saved up some money from

[00:10:42] working at bookstore and we went to New York I remember I crashed there and then we went to

[00:10:48] national championships and I qualified fifth in the pro class and kind of nobody I knew I was

[00:10:55] or anything like that and I was like cool like this is perfect all I need to do is get a top 20

[00:10:59] went to finals and like crashed and I was just super devastated I felt like I was going to get a podium

[00:11:05] like first national championships and and I didn't get my points and so I had read the rule book

[00:11:10] like front to back and I went up to the kind of the I don't know what you call them the commissary

[00:11:16] like USA cycling sports director and I was like man I know that you can do a national team jersey

[00:11:24] so you can go on the national team can I go to a world cup and he was like well there's

[00:11:27] wind him this year which was the first world cup in the US for from a really long time and

[00:11:33] it's like a lot of people want to go and I was like what about Italy and he was like well

[00:11:36] that's next week and I was like so what about Italy and so I ended up I ended up flying home

[00:11:46] and me and my mom and my brother flew to Italy as my first time out of the country yeah I didn't know

[00:11:52] what was going on and like what jet lag was my phone bill was super like whatever and I didn't

[00:11:59] take any tools or anything like that it was just like me with my bike flipped upside down behind

[00:12:04] like this million dollar specialized rig or whatever and yeah me and my brother just like you know

[00:12:12] we walked the track a bunch and in qualifying I was trying this gap and broke my chain device

[00:12:20] and my derailleur went into my spokes and I wasn't able to pedal but it was about a sole is a super

[00:12:25] super steep track and you don't really have to pedal except for the start and I was like man I flew

[00:12:29] all the way Italy and I'm not going to qualify and I was like man like you can still do it just like

[00:12:36] try to like not touch the brakes as much as you can or whatever and I ended up I ended up qualifying

[00:12:46] it was 80 people qualified and I ended up qualifying like 74th or something and at the time it was

[00:12:50] a wow kind of a big deal because not many Americans qualified at the time and it's your first

[00:12:58] world cup like yeah it's my first world cup that's hard yeah it's so yeah I ended up like having

[00:13:06] to go around to all these pits like literally went to you know the specialized pit in SRAM and I

[00:13:14] didn't know anyone and my mom like I put my mom a list and she would just like go to different pits

[00:13:19] and be like do you have a wheel that we could borrow do you have like a derailleur that we could borrow

[00:13:23] or like whatever and you know got into finals with this bike that look completely different

[00:13:30] and didn't do much better I think I got like 60 something but it was it was such a cool experience

[00:13:37] because it was an introduction to like that mountain bike community I feel like

[00:13:43] I've just everyone like helping and everything and and introduction to this race like the tracks

[00:13:50] were just so much bigger so much faster so much cooler and I think that that was kind of why I fell in

[00:13:58] love with it was just you know if you said like the first it was like I feel like I'm gonna really

[00:14:04] like this that whole experience of that year was um was like okay I really want to do this and

[00:14:12] ended up next year got on Yeti and yeah started my like pro pro career um but it was and one of the

[00:14:21] stories that I laugh about always and uh my mom saw this dude sitting sitting like curb or something

[00:14:30] like that afterward and uh she was like that guy looks really sad you should go and talk to him

[00:14:37] I was like oh mom that's Greg Minar and she was like oh I don't know who that is but you should

[00:14:42] go and talk to him he looks you know he looks like he could use a friend or whatever for people

[00:14:46] who don't know Greg is like the most winning rider greatest of all time down on that biker

[00:14:51] and so I just went up and talked to him now yeah like where he's one of my best friends or whatever

[00:14:57] you know but my mom's like just go and talk to that that kid or whatever over there oh my gosh

[00:15:03] what was that conversation like I I think I was just like hey you don't know who I am but

[00:15:09] I know you are I'm so that I should come and talk to you he's super nice I'm sure he was just like

[00:15:18] hey hey nice to meet you oh my gosh that's amazing I love that people don't realize how approachable

[00:15:26] a lot of these top level athletes are that you could just rock up to somebody who's one of the

[00:15:30] most accomplished athletes in the discipline in the world and sit down and be like hey you don't

[00:15:35] know who I am but my mom said I should come talk to you like that's completely acceptable

[00:15:40] and you know mostly these athletes would have all the time in the world for that

[00:15:44] right yeah yeah that I mean that is it's super cool that mountain biking I think and

[00:15:49] and I think it's probably cycling in general as state like that where the athletes aren't behind

[00:15:53] some a bunch of velvet ropes and things like that yeah yeah so you glossed over something that I

[00:16:00] want to make sure we don't gloss over um you got your started motocross but when you stop out

[00:16:05] across what you had five national championship titles to your name something like that um yeah

[00:16:12] yeah we were we were going for you were no sludge this wasn't like this wasn't like oh we did

[00:16:19] some motocross for a while this was like very high level stuff this wasn't just you know

[00:16:23] oh it dabbled as a hobby like you were kidding when you said we were going for it totally yeah yeah

[00:16:31] something I think that that was um it was super nice because it set up a bunch of stuff in my life

[00:16:39] got to spend so much time with my family got to understand how sports worked and I'd say that like

[00:16:43] I didn't go to school like we did homeschool in like sixth grade and then I kind of just stop

[00:16:48] going to school but my family both my parents are entrepreneurs and so they had always had these

[00:16:53] amazing lessons of like okay we're gonna try to ride for Kawasaki like why would they sponsor you guys

[00:16:59] like what's our budget for the year and stuff like that so I think it allowed me to develop a bunch

[00:17:04] of skills um when I went and race mountain bikes on my own of just understanding value and understanding

[00:17:13] how companies think and being able to just navigate the space and and all that stuff

[00:17:19] it's an MBA where the rubber meets the road like literally yeah totally yeah you're just in there

[00:17:25] learning by doing yeah yeah yeah for sure forget theory we're just going straight to

[00:17:31] application oh yeah yeah don't mess it up because then we won't have a ride this year

[00:17:36] there we go so there was a three year gap though so you had incredible success in motocross

[00:17:44] and then you stopped when you were 15 and then it wasn't until you were 18 that you got going

[00:17:48] with downhill mountain biking what brought on the end of the motocross and why the three year gap

[00:17:56] yeah I don't know like motocross my family kind of just was over it my brother he's three years

[00:18:02] older than me um he was he would have gone pro and raced supercross and stuff the next year

[00:18:08] and I think he was at a point in his life where he's just like this isn't really what I want to do

[00:18:14] my mom was like it's super dangerous at the time like amateurs didn't really get paid

[00:18:18] so we were yeah I was like expensive still with all the travel and I was just like well if my

[00:18:26] family is not doing it I guess like I don't want to do it and so yeah went went to community college

[00:18:33] like got my high school diploma did a couple of university classes and that I guess that was

[00:18:38] really when I started riding dirt jumps a lot um we had a couple dirt jump spots near me

[00:18:44] so it was just I guess I was just a normal kid like yeah just hanging out with friends um yeah

[00:18:51] going to school yeah riding my bike like it was just a super normal life at that point I think

[00:18:58] mm-hmm and it wasn't until you were 18 that you started like really kind of get this glimmer in your

[00:19:03] eye about the downhill mountain biking yeah specifically because you encountered a friend who

[00:19:08] was introducing you to it yeah yeah definitely yeah like at one of those dirt jump spots just

[00:19:16] yeah was friends with him and like he was just the dude who rode mountain bikes at dirt jump spot

[00:19:22] like a heart tail like now I would ride the same thing but yeah he convinced me to go to like a

[00:19:28] local spot I think it just all progressed super fast where maybe there was some part of me that

[00:19:37] I've always been yeah super ambitious and I think we'll probably get into it later but thinking

[00:19:47] about like what is the common thread between you know between all the stuff you do in your life

[00:19:53] and like thinking back I kind of understand that a little bit more now and also I guess when

[00:19:59] I was 1617 I was like playing video games a lot like I was like a pro video game player for a little

[00:20:05] bit yeah my mom would take me to these video great tournaments in like Northern California and stuff

[00:20:19] yeah so I think it was probably like the next next competitive thing in my life maybe okay so

[00:20:24] you it wasn't like just dropped out of competition completely there it was like you were kind

[00:20:28] of going from one competitive arena I guess so yeah I felt like like I felt like I was I mean

[00:20:33] it's not like I was at a level of like where I was in mountain biking or whatever for sure

[00:20:39] was like a hobby more so because there wasn't really a thing back then but I guess it was yeah

[00:20:44] just like my little my little break I love it I love it so once you decided to go all-in on downhill

[00:20:52] which I just I you just I love that you just walked rocked up for the official you're like so world

[00:20:57] so naive yeah but you so you ended up racing at the World Cup and World Championship level for

[00:21:06] eight years representing the US representing professional teams and you said and you already

[00:21:12] mentioned this that you knew you loved it from the start and you went all in with that conviction

[00:21:17] and it wasn't until you were actually in it that you started really thinking about why maybe you

[00:21:22] love it so tell me a little bit about that exploration when did you start wondering why yeah super

[00:21:28] interesting I feel like because race for a couple years did pretty good and then I remember I got

[00:21:37] on pivot so we're so yeti then I got on pivot and there was this moment where I got a podium

[00:21:47] at crankworks rhodorua so crankworks like a festival and at the time it was that year was really

[00:21:53] competitive so like a geotherton and sam hill and look brooney like a lot of the World Cup athletes were

[00:22:00] there and I got second I remember going on the podium and I was super happy I remember walking off

[00:22:07] the podium I was like kind of feel like I did just a couple hours ago like nothing's really changed

[00:22:15] and I was like I feel like this is what I this is supposed to be the moment that I've been

[00:22:23] working toward this is supposed to be what I love more than everything is like standing like

[00:22:28] you know on the podium and beating people and stuff like that and so I think it was

[00:22:35] kind of that which was like I think in most things you have a carrot in a stick but you just

[00:22:40] normally don't catch the carrot and so I like caught the carrot and I was like well this is not

[00:22:45] the right carrot like I'm doing this for the wrong reasons like doesn't taste nearly as good

[00:22:51] I thought I was going to so I felt like after that I kind of explored like what is the more sustainable

[00:22:57] source of motivation and I think for me I realized that it was just this this pursuit of like mastery

[00:23:06] I think where mastery in a sense not in a sense of like I want to be finished but mastery in a sense

[00:23:15] of like I would go to New Zealand to train every year and how do I just get more perfect like

[00:23:23] how do I train better how do I like prepare better mentally like how do I you know control my

[00:23:30] bike better I want to go to two inches to the left of this you know I want my times to be within

[00:23:36] half a second every single run and that was just so interesting to me like just pulling the

[00:23:42] string to see how deep it would go and that was I think what maybe the second half of my career

[00:23:49] was about I love that I love that and I find it really interesting that a lot of what you just

[00:23:54] described in terms of that pursuit of mastery is so process oriented and a lot of what you just

[00:24:02] listed as the things that captured your your your passion they weren't specific results

[00:24:10] yeah I mean I think there is almost that trope now of oh trust the process it's about the process

[00:24:17] rather than the outcome and things like that and I think once for me like digging into that

[00:24:24] it was that idea really is about finding what you love in the process not so much the process

[00:24:32] in service of the outcome yeah that's a really insightful and like big difference year right because

[00:24:39] totally yeah yeah tell me a little bit more about what that was like for you ironically I think

[00:24:44] that it was easier much easier said than done like if I I think that there was a period where I

[00:24:50] I understood that and then at the end of my career I think I totally lost it but I think it was

[00:24:55] just about every piece of it like my probably one of my best years was like in my second to last year

[00:25:03] and I I got some more podiums I got some great world cup results but then also I was just like

[00:25:09] training super hard you know I had a trainer Jared Cole like and we were in Santa Barbara and so

[00:25:15] I would like go up there have to stay with his parents every day we were just trying to find a

[00:25:22] little bit more trying to do an exercise a little bit more better or perfect and you know giving

[00:25:26] the feedback but I think in addition to that there was more to it so one of the things that Greg

[00:25:34] ironically has said to me is like you have to be able to turn off to turn on and so it's also about

[00:25:40] like how do you create the most variance there almost and so in between the races like we'd be

[00:25:46] in France or whatever you know I would I love to go to Paris I love to hang out in Geneva

[00:25:51] and so the process is not deterministic sports are like the least deterministic thing

[00:25:56] I think from the outside they look deterministic right yes oh that person is training super hard

[00:26:01] like to win all you have to do is just train for eight hours a day and train harder than everyone

[00:26:05] else and I wish you were that easy like totally totally just this linear relationship

[00:26:14] totally right yeah like that would be amazing that would make like life so simple it's just like

[00:26:20] work really hard and yeah and you'll achieve everything you ever wanted totally so I think

[00:26:26] that that process like finding that process is about saying what is the correct process for me

[00:26:31] and I think every athlete probably ends up exploring that deterministic side of things like

[00:26:35] I'm just gonna train super hard and then you don't do well and you wonder why and then you're like

[00:26:39] oh that's actually not what the process is for me like I need to have fun I need to talk to people

[00:26:47] I need to you know be friends with my fellow athletes I need to read I need to travel like all

[00:26:54] of that stuff is just if not more important than like picking up a weight and putting it down or

[00:27:00] whatever yeah yeah I think so much of what you're saying is really resonating with me and one

[00:27:05] of the things that I've observed over the years and myself and in others is that athletes who have

[00:27:10] a really long career and I mean you were racing at the level for a decade which for folks listening

[00:27:14] that's a long time to be able to sustain performance at that level I mean it takes a lot to do that

[00:27:21] just from a talent and a work ethic perspective but there's so much more that goes into it because

[00:27:25] you have a lot of athletes that come into the sport with a lot of talent and a lot of work ethic

[00:27:29] and they're blown in two or three years or maybe even a year right like but to sustain it at

[00:27:34] that level what I found is it requires cultivating a lot of joy in what you do and it doesn't necessarily

[00:27:41] come with the outcomes and a lot of what you were just describing you know connecting with other

[00:27:45] people the travel reading like these are things that are really joyful moments embedded in the

[00:27:51] larger process of what you're doing as an athlete and I think sometimes there's this perception

[00:27:55] that athletes are really superhuman in terms of discipline and discipline being wow they just have

[00:28:01] this superhuman ability to grind it out and do things that they don't want to do over and over again

[00:28:08] but that's not sustainable and that's not what what you're doing right yeah for sure I mean what was

[00:28:14] it like for you like that's did you go through that same process of like like figuring out what

[00:28:21] the joyful moments were it's so funny because a lot of what you're saying I'm just like uh-huh uh-huh

[00:28:27] I'm just nodding so hard inside because I had a really similar kind of narrative arc if you will

[00:28:33] where you're coming into the sport it's like okay I'm gonna achieve these like benchmark super high

[00:28:38] you know set a bunch of standards for myself and you know I'm gonna get this result in this result

[00:28:41] and this result and then you start to get results and I mean it's fun like it's really fun to win

[00:28:47] yeah it's great but it somehow never lives up to what you imagined it was gonna be

[00:28:54] or it doesn't last as long and then you kind of realize that's not the thing that's gonna sustain

[00:28:59] your fire and the pursuit of mastery the way that you just capture that in those three words was

[00:29:05] I just that really struck a chord with me because that was very much what I felt at the end too

[00:29:10] which makes it hard because then it's like well when do you stop right because that's a process

[00:29:15] that has no end totally yeah totally 100% how was it for you how did you know when you were ready

[00:29:24] to step away yeah it's interesting because my last year probably had my best year results wise

[00:29:33] wasn't super consistent but I like yeah like the little flashes of brilliance and I just

[00:29:41] hated riding my bike oh man yeah that'll do it yeah totally there was it was I think a bunch

[00:29:48] of external stuff like when I was saying that I I totally lost that pursuit of mastery I think

[00:29:55] that because I had felt so good I put so much work into it just did everything the opposite of

[00:30:01] what I just said like I was like man I know I trained harder than everyone else I know that like

[00:30:06] I'm good I know everything's working right I know whatever like why am I not doing well and I think

[00:30:12] just getting caught up in that just kind of ruined it for me a bit and I there was a time let me

[00:30:19] halfway through the season I was at at a race and I was like halfway down the track and I remember

[00:30:24] thinking like I would rather be anywhere but here like doing this right now and it was like in the

[00:30:30] middle of my race run and I was like yeah okay I'm probably done okay I don't want to this is

[00:30:38] like I can't be thinking about this in a little bit of a race run no and so I think yeah like I

[00:30:43] think it was hard and there was probably two paths or whatever where I could have refocused

[00:30:52] realize that I mean I think I realized it in the moment refocused and said okay let me get back

[00:30:59] to basics and figure out figure out my life but I think I've also always wanted to do not more

[00:31:06] as in the diminishment of sport but like different things like I just have such I think broad

[00:31:12] interest and stuff like that and I said you know I think maybe now is the right time for me to go

[00:31:18] and do a bunch of other things yeah because I mean to your what you said earlier really

[00:31:25] resonates that when you're engaged in the pursuit of mastery there's no end to it right you don't

[00:31:30] achieve mastery and you're like oh I'm good I'm done totally yeah it's just a constant cultivation

[00:31:36] of it but you have which means it forces you into the position of making a decision an active

[00:31:41] and intentional decision to walk away because you don't there isn't a finish line with that

[00:31:47] approach right unless you create it for yourself and right you do have so many hats and so many

[00:31:54] varied interests that I don't I'm not at all surprised that you were kind of like yeah I'm ready

[00:31:58] to pursue mastery on a different path now because yeah I mean I think even just realizing that

[00:32:03] that like if that is if that's the core thing the core driver in your life like the the things

[00:32:09] you do are just kind of outlets for that driver and so I would say that I still still pursue that

[00:32:17] in everything that I do and that downhill mountain biking was like the vehicle for it for a decade

[00:32:23] yeah yeah it's just just a decade no big deal right yeah really long time really really like time

[00:32:34] yeah yeah totally it is and I don't I don't want that to be diminished in the least because I

[00:32:39] think that that's no no no truly remarkable it really is especially for somebody who is saying

[00:32:46] I mean I think it's so funny that you don't identify as somebody who's like a real risk taker

[00:32:53] I mean to you're like but I'm gonna dedicate a decade of my life to downhill mountain bike racing I

[00:32:58] think yeah well you know what I like I've had this conversation or like I thought about this

[00:33:05] little idea of risk versus like in a pro's eyes versus like an amateur's eyes and I always say

[00:33:12] that pro's almost by definition are taking less risk because they're riding so much more like when

[00:33:17] I would go to New Zealand I was I really loved and kind of needed a lot of bike time so I would do

[00:33:24] like 200 runs or so and in like two months and and to do 200 runs and then stay healthy

[00:33:34] and then you know the like weekend warrior who goes out like one weekend and gets hurt

[00:33:40] you're like well like who is taking more risk yeah well and when I mean not that anybody wants to

[00:33:47] crash right but when you're a total level yeah it's your entire livelihood and in a lot of what

[00:33:54] determines the success of an entire career is how much you can minimize illness and injury right

[00:34:01] because totally yeah yeah yeah those things set you back so far especially if your competitor

[00:34:07] has a really clean season and never gets you know never gets under never gets sick like it's

[00:34:13] it makes you different so yeah and I think people forget about that part of it

[00:34:18] right yeah yeah that the that I have to start at the starting line to like get the results

[00:34:24] like a prerequisite yeah we'll be back with more from Elliott after this quick break

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[00:36:01] that's be a good wheel dot com slash community and now back to our conversation with professional

[00:36:08] downhill racer and red bull tv personality Elliott Jackson oh that's really I really and I

[00:36:17] think it's funny that you had that moment in the middle of a race run where you were like

[00:36:22] this is not where I want to be right now and maybe I should stop doing this because

[00:36:26] I definitely had some of those thoughts too but in my case I was a road racer so my race has lasted

[00:36:32] three to four hours so I would be on the road with a few hours in having that thought but I mean

[00:36:37] you're in the middle like you're going 80 kilometers an hour down the side of a cliff and you're

[00:36:42] like maybe I want to be doing something else like that I feel like yeah slightly different

[00:36:50] so do you yeah you had time to be like well I think I'm gonna go to a vacation here maybe I'll go to

[00:36:56] Bali I think it was like far less risky for me to have that slightly straking hot in the middle of

[00:37:04] a four hour race versus like a two minute race so amazing yeah amazing so you had you knew when

[00:37:13] you were ready to stop what was the transition out of racing like for you yeah interesting because

[00:37:21] I never thought that I would be in the bike world like I am I've always thought that I would be

[00:37:27] like a software engineer like I'm such a nerd and I was like cool like after I get an

[00:37:33] racing I'll go and do some data science or yeah like software development stuff or whatever

[00:37:40] and the year after I was like really intentional so I had like taken a little break thought that

[00:37:47] I was gonna like retire like 2012 because I had focal core dysfunction there were time out race

[00:37:53] like I would start coughing like kind of like exercise and juice asthma but I couldn't figure it out

[00:37:58] and so I was like okay I'm done this is stupid and so I took a year off and just kind of was just

[00:38:03] like okay like I announced my retirement and it was just kind of cold turkey and it felt super

[00:38:09] bad ended up coming back the next year because went to this ear nose and throat doctor and they

[00:38:16] diagnosed it and figured it out and it was yeah just about acid so any sort of acid like the things

[00:38:23] you eat the way you sleep right like acid reflux yeah I needed to train harder because like my

[00:38:30] body needs to figure out how to like flesh the lactic acid if I was really nervous like that makes

[00:38:35] you acidic so like figure out all of these things yeah came back and so when I stopped like the second

[00:38:40] time I was like I am just going to not do it not have such a like fine line drawn and so in 20 what

[00:38:55] last year was 2017 so in 2018 I was like I'm just gonna explore a bunch of bike stuff I'm going to

[00:39:01] go and camp I did this race called trans-cascadia where you it's like a multi-day event when you can't

[00:39:09] overnight I guess and like just ride like a blind endure race I did that I just like stayed out a

[00:39:16] bunch of friends houses and just tried to explore the bike in other ways like it never really ridden

[00:39:22] trail bikes at all and so it was kind of trying to discover not the discover the love for the bike

[00:39:28] again but explore other avenues I guess that the bike offered like what else like I've written this

[00:39:34] thing for almost 10 years and I've only just written down a hill like what else do people do

[00:39:39] on it and I was just kind of using that as just like a year of whatever before I went and tried to

[00:39:45] get a job and then in 2019 Red Bull reached out to me and said we're starting this YouTube series

[00:39:52] and we want you to be the host yeah and I was like huh like that's really cool and I thought about

[00:40:01] this a lot like after the fact and there is this idea of like this vulnerability flywheel where

[00:40:09] after I stopped race or like kind of my last year I built this website that pulled a bunch of data

[00:40:15] and put them up it's called like World Cup stats because the results were just on a PDF sheet

[00:40:19] that came out too late so I was like we should do this we need something better so I built this

[00:40:23] website and I was my software as my software engineering hat my like super nerd like 12

[00:40:36] 12 a.m. before race like on the computer um yeah because that's what most racers are doing at 12

[00:40:41] 12 a.m. before the race yeah sorry it's amazing but I um so like in the vulnerability thing I think that

[00:40:51] the culture of mountain biking was like not super not super nerdy and it was really kind of hard

[00:40:58] for me to show that side of me but at one point I was just like I'm gonna do this so some this

[00:41:04] thing happened where like the flywheel is is like you're honest with yourself and you do the things

[00:41:12] that like are core to you which then like shows visibility like it creates like this um

[00:41:18] shows people what you do which then brings you opportunity and so because I was a racer and like

[00:41:25] doing this analysis stuff red bull was like oh here's a downhill racer and he's an analyst and

[00:41:31] he's a communicator like what's the intersection of those things it's this analysis show that we're

[00:41:36] doing on red bull TV which then like brings success because it's all the stuff that you're really good

[00:41:41] at which then makes it easier even easier to be honest and then like creates more visibility

[00:41:45] and that just spins around but it's um it's really hard to be honest right like because a lot

[00:41:51] of the time especially now like we're really incentivized to go really deep on one thing on social media

[00:41:58] you should have one persona to succeed you should you know back to the like determinism in sport

[00:42:03] kind of thing and so that was kind of like my first exposure to that like that idea of just like

[00:42:10] being who you are uh and it leading to success and yeah also like led to the red bull thing which kept

[00:42:17] me in the bike world and I without that I totally wouldn't even be talking to you right now because

[00:42:23] I would be I would have been off doing some random thing somewhere else like not

[00:42:28] another random yeah yeah yeah yeah totally well even that first step that you describe

[00:42:35] with a flywheel of being honest with yourself that is easier said than done

[00:42:40] totally yeah how did yeah how did you take that first step what did that look like for you

[00:42:46] I think it was I mean I think it was just doing what I wanted without even saying it first

[00:42:52] you know and then the I think for me understanding that that it's not going to resonate as much with

[00:43:00] people as the other pieces of your personality are like I was super into Instagram at that at that point

[00:43:06] and there was just a formula where you post a picture bike it gets however many thousand likes

[00:43:12] if you post a picture of you in the mud it gets this many likes and you know post a picture of you

[00:43:18] doing a jump or whatever like it gets this many likes and so like that is the thing

[00:43:22] that people follow you for and I remember when I when I launched that website put it on my

[00:43:30] Instagram and it got like a hundred likes or something like that and like no one like orders of

[00:43:35] magnitude fewer likes yeah literally like like literally what 30 times or 40 times less

[00:43:42] wow and so like that was that was a thing and then when I had put this little analysis piece on

[00:43:51] it where you could kind of see what people were clicking on and people would come to the site

[00:43:55] and then you're like click one or two things and then leave and I was like man I just bit like a

[00:43:59] couple thousand hours like building this thing and like you're not gonna explore around a little bit

[00:44:04] yeah check it out yeah and so I think I think it was not that I was deriving the value from

[00:44:13] likes but it's almost just like what feedback are you getting right like yeah Instagram is

[00:44:20] just like some form of feedback the people you talk to is some form of feedback right like if I

[00:44:24] was programming somebody would say something if you know I wasn't training or something like

[00:44:29] that somebody would say something and so it's not so much that like the way I valued myself was

[00:44:34] like on how many likes it did or whatever but it's just like just little mini fiction points and

[00:44:40] so I think that that's why the like the vulnerability piece that's why being vulnerable is hard right

[00:44:45] because as soon as you're vulnerable not only does it open yourself up to friction and feedback that

[00:44:51] you're not maybe hoping for but also it's in a place that you care a lot about and so I I cared

[00:44:59] way more about this website than like if somebody saw picture of me and was like oh you have bad style

[00:45:04] like I was like I don't whatever so yeah like I think that that was that piece of it was like

[00:45:12] probably the way that I kind of started to understand of like really going back to that process idea

[00:45:20] of what is the core thing that motivates me if maybe it's this mastery piece of trying to make the

[00:45:26] best website and trying to you know do the best broadcast or make the best YouTube series and like

[00:45:31] that should be my North Star and like showing all the pieces of me that that need to be shown and

[00:45:36] doing what I need to do in service of of the mastery component really helped me kind of get over that

[00:45:44] what do I do if I get negative feedback or you know there's friction to me being vulnerable.

[00:45:49] I love that what you're describing to me it's so it's so true that we we each have a sense of

[00:45:55] identity a sense of self and so much of our identity is reflected back to us from the world right

[00:46:00] reflected back to us interactions with people interactions online in the form of likes on Instagram

[00:46:07] and social media and as much as we'd like to believe that those things don't affect us they absolutely do

[00:46:13] and it's funny because I think at least in my life the moments where I've had this a struggle with

[00:46:18] a loss of identity it's been so clarifying because a loss of one identity helps me see who I am

[00:46:26] without all of these identities that are being reflected back to me and it's hard like it's not an

[00:46:31] easy process to go through to like examine yourself in that way right. Oh my god there is um I

[00:46:39] I have this little talk that I give and one of the pieces of it when you talk about the loss of

[00:46:44] identity like what we've been talking about are like these bullet points of my resume almost right

[00:46:50] like you would say yeah okay he was a motocross racer and he won some championships and then he

[00:46:56] went and rode motocross or sorry mountain biking and he did this and got some podiums and blah blah blah

[00:47:01] and then he was a red book TV commentator and stuff and so like that is what you see on a resume

[00:47:07] but like what would it look like if you explored the white space like in between that right like I would

[00:47:14] you would be the first one it would be like oh yeah he was a motocross racer and then he lost his

[00:47:18] identity and didn't know what he was going to do with this life and but you know it was just

[00:47:23] like cruising around with his friends or whatever and then he discovered mountain mountain biking

[00:47:27] and was all good and then he lost his identity again and had no idea what he was going to do

[00:47:33] with his life you know and so I think that those like the white space in between these like big

[00:47:39] moments of your life like even going back to that idea of the variance of like turning off to

[00:47:44] turn on and like those the white space in between is the hard part but it's also where the growth

[00:47:51] happens and it gives you this blank canvas because as soon as you're there like the opportunities are

[00:47:57] kind of endless and as soon as you start pursuing something by definition and in a positive way

[00:48:02] the opportunities and the places you can go kind of narrow but I think that that blank canvas idea

[00:48:09] in between these moments of like success are almost the most interesting and exciting moments in life

[00:48:17] tell me more about this so I agree with you 100% there and I think that that's a balance that I try

[00:48:23] to strike here on this podcast too because I you bring so much credibility because of those

[00:48:29] bullet points on your resume because of what you've achieved but what we're talking about here is

[00:48:34] so much more of the white space and so much more what's interesting I think and relatable for folks

[00:48:39] that yeah you're not just some freak of nature who just happened to be super talented in on a downhill

[00:48:44] bike like you too are a human being who struggles with identity and understanding who you are

[00:48:51] but I really want to talk about this idea of turning off to turn on because you've mentioned it twice

[00:48:56] it really caught my ear when you said it the first time and the first time you said it it meant one

[00:49:00] thing and the second time you said it it meant something else to me so I'm really curious to hear

[00:49:04] what it means for you I think it is like the idea of contrast you know there's kind of like no

[00:49:12] no good moments without the bad like no growth without pain or whatever and so I think that it's

[00:49:20] when I think about that it is what does it look like to almost deliberately cultivate it or

[00:49:27] lean into it kind of thing and I think as an athlete that is one of the hardest things to do

[00:49:34] I think after I stop racing the thing that I from the outside the thing that is so much more apparent

[00:49:43] is you can be doing the right thing and things can go wrong and I think that that was probably

[00:49:48] the thing that I missed most in my last year and I was talking to like Fin Isles and like my friend

[00:49:55] Bernard Curr too they had like some really difficult moments in the season like one at the beginning

[00:49:59] and one at the end and I the thing I said to both of them was like man you're doing everything perfect

[00:50:05] like you're doing like everything perfect like just keep doing what you're doing like you don't

[00:50:11] need to go and solve problems like and they are better than I ever was like they get it but

[00:50:17] I think that that idea of when you're in that moment where everything is kind of going wrong

[00:50:23] you feel like you need to solve problems or whatever like you almost just have to lean into it

[00:50:29] and say this is just part of it instead of trying to push it away you know maybe similar to

[00:50:35] I did what I did is like why isn't happening now like what am I doing what do I need to fix

[00:50:40] or whatever you know and say okay everything is not where I want it to be I'm going to just embrace

[00:50:46] I'm just going to sit in this and like kind of try to figure it out like I mean for me at least

[00:50:53] like whenever I'm on like a vacation or sitting still like that's where I have my best ideas or

[00:50:59] think of like the most interesting things and so I think that idea to me is also turning off right

[00:51:06] like turning off the desire to fix things turning off the desire to get out of the situation

[00:51:15] like even that idea of white space like I think that we if you ask a lot of people they would

[00:51:19] want to jump from one resume bullet point to the next but I think that ideally right like you totally

[00:51:26] live in that white space moment even though it is a bit uncomfortable definitely and I remember when

[00:51:32] I retired from the sport I didn't know what I wanted to do next either and a friend of mine

[00:51:37] described as being in the hallway which is another way of saying the white space like you step through

[00:51:40] one door yeah and the next one has an open yet and it's not a bad place to be right is just a hallway

[00:51:46] but well man I want there's a million doors you could go and it's the best place to be

[00:51:54] it isn't it isn't right because sometimes that totally yeah that choice is so overwhelming and then

[00:51:58] you think oh I had to pick the right one but then yeah eventually you realize there's there's

[00:52:03] more than one hallway and it doesn't have to be the right one it could just be the right one for

[00:52:09] a little while and what did you how did that go for you like what what was the what made the door

[00:52:15] that you took enticing oh man it's funny when I stopped I didn't know what I wanted to do yet but

[00:52:21] I kind of went back to when I got into the sport I never in a million years would have thought

[00:52:27] that I would be a pro cyclist like I didn't even know that the sport of cycling existed you know

[00:52:31] when I was growing up I wanted to be a swimmer and that was everything and even with swimming it

[00:52:36] wasn't like you could be a professional swimmer I mean there are maybe a handful of athletes who

[00:52:42] can make a living off endorsements as swimmers but it's not a revenue sport in the way that you know

[00:52:48] maybe basketball would be or soccer but cycling was never on the radar so I held onto this conviction

[00:52:56] which I had proof of in my own life that even if I didn't know what I wanted to do it was possible

[00:53:02] that there was an opportunity for me that I couldn't even think of right now I couldn't even imagine

[00:53:06] existed sure uh huh and that gave me a lot of comfort and that is actually what happened I ended up

[00:53:13] taking a position as a product manager for trainer road in a software development company and

[00:53:17] I am not a software developer by the way so I was I was working with engineers and I was managing

[00:53:23] product but it was it was phenomenal and I I loved it and I if you had asked me two years before I

[00:53:28] retired what I wanted to do would never have even been on my radar yeah right but getting back

[00:53:35] to this idea of turning off to turn on there were two ways that that reflected back to me and I just

[00:53:40] want to check in with you on both of those because the the second one you brought up in context of

[00:53:46] walking away from the sport and identity and it's an eloquent way of saying turning off these

[00:53:52] identities and these ways that we identify ourselves allows us to turn on to who we really are

[00:53:59] in yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the aspects of ourselves that don't get reflected back as much or

[00:54:04] that do encounter friction that are as important as those that maybe generate more legs

[00:54:12] no I think that's uh I think that's like exactly right yeah 100%

[00:54:16] I and I love this tune it's a different way of thinking about the same thing so I love

[00:54:20] that thing is gonna just echo in my mind for months after this interview the other way I was

[00:54:25] thinking about it was in both sports that I've done swimming and cycling there were so many skills

[00:54:30] that I had to learn in order to be successful at at the level that I wanted to compete at and

[00:54:35] those skills when you're learning a skill you start out learning in a very mechanical way

[00:54:40] and you're learning the steps and the step by step okay first you do this then you do this

[00:54:44] and you're really trying and you're really thinking but then you get to a point where in order

[00:54:50] to pursue that mastery your mind is you know whereas your mind has been the thing that's been your

[00:54:56] ally all of this time in those last few steps of mastery the mind is the thing that's getting

[00:55:01] in your way and so you have to let go of the thinking that allowed you to learn it in the first place

[00:55:08] in order to achieve that mastery yeah there's um there's this book that I read every couple of years

[00:55:15] called the art of learning it's by the student Josh weight skin he had this he was the subject

[00:55:20] of this movie searching for Bobby Fisher so he's a chess player and then he went on to do tie to

[00:55:26] push hands and is just the coolest thinker but he talks about that like I can't remember the

[00:55:32] exact language he uses but he it is that idea like it's it is I think he says it's like form to

[00:55:38] leave form so like you have to practice and get so good at it that way it's second nature that way

[00:55:44] you don't even have to think about it so like I have to do so many reps on my bike and you know

[00:55:50] practice my left hand turns are clipping out so many times that that way I don't even think

[00:55:55] about clipping out right I can leave that idea of practice behind or I can leave that idea of

[00:55:59] even thinking about it behind yeah and so I like I love I love that idea for sure yeah and hearing

[00:56:07] you just in different interviews that you've done over the years talking about when you were

[00:56:12] racing downhill and looking at lines and making those decisions so I used to get nervous before

[00:56:17] a bike race and my husband used to joke to me he'd be like why are you nervous you have like three

[00:56:21] hours to figure it out I love that whereas for you there is no time to figure anything out because

[00:56:31] you have just a couple minutes and and you're looking at fractions of a second that are going to make

[00:56:36] a difference in your line and you're deciding what line to take down the side of a cliff for

[00:56:44] you know better term and overthinking right is going to be absolutely your enemy and I think a lot

[00:56:51] of folks who myself include it so I'm not a mountain biker but I like to get out there and work on

[00:56:57] this and learn and I know because I've gone through this process in other sports and other disciplines

[00:57:03] that as an amateur as a beginner I'm thinking about a whole lot of stuff that an expert is not even

[00:57:10] paying attention to and that the difference between a beginner and an expert is really the expert

[00:57:16] knows how much they don't actually have to pay attention to and part of the reason they can do

[00:57:20] that is what you've just described because all of that learning has been so integrated that it's

[00:57:26] it's no longer even landing on that radar of consciousness right like what you're seeing going

[00:57:32] down a hill is like a sliver of what I would be looking at and trying to process as a beginner.

[00:57:39] Yeah that is I think that that's a perfect way to articulate it because I think it is putting more

[00:57:45] space in the moment between the moments that you focus on like when we walk we don't look at

[00:57:49] like every single little crack which is like pick a moment and there's something I'm gonna step

[00:57:53] there and then I'm step there and I think that that never changes like for me riding mountain bikes

[00:57:59] and ironically like I've talked to a bunch of kind of road and gravel athletes and I'm like it's

[00:58:05] like what do you think about like what's going on or whatever and they're like I don't know you're

[00:58:10] kind of like focused the whole time like there's always something to do like your shifting or doing

[00:58:14] this and I think when the downhill mountain bike side it feels like oh it's just over in a blink of an

[00:58:20] eye but for me personally my best races were when I could just recount every single little thing

[00:58:28] like half a pedal here two inches left there like I'm gonna lean over here like put my tire on that

[00:58:33] rock put my tire on that rock boom boom and like going back to that idea of like putting more space

[00:58:40] in between what you think about as a beginner or as an expert I guess like I'm not it's not that

[00:58:45] I'm like processing processing more than what a beginner would it's that maybe the beginner is

[00:58:51] saying there's a route here and another route here and I need to put my tires on this one and then

[00:58:56] put my tires on this one where it maybe an expert would say oh I can actually just like bunny hop

[00:59:01] over the the whole thing and like I'm looking at a point 10 feet ahead whereas a beginner would

[00:59:07] look at two feet ahead but I think that that just like totally comes with experience right of just

[00:59:13] saying okay I know what my bike's gonna do but I would and I would think it would be similar for

[00:59:17] like other other disciplines too right like I know I can hold this wattage for this long and I don't

[00:59:23] have to think about like is my heart rate here for like 10 seconds or that ever you know like

[00:59:29] I just feel it totally yeah yeah yeah for sure yeah no it's it's a really interesting thing

[00:59:35] to think about and yeah I'm imagining that I just think it's funny like that I'd be thinking

[00:59:39] about like seven things and you would just be thinking bunny hop yeah totally and I think this speaks

[00:59:50] to I'm regardless of what you're doing whether you're an athlete or not I think a lot of people

[00:59:54] you know you dedicate yourself to something whether it is a skill that's related to your career

[00:59:57] or parenting or whatever it is but something that you've been learning and working on for a long

[01:00:02] time what becomes normal was once really far out of reach but it's so gradual that by the time

[01:00:11] you can do something that from the outside looking in is utterly remarkable it feels so mundane

[01:00:17] to you from your own perspective because you're just like this is normal this is what I do every day

[01:00:21] how is it this isn't this is nothing right and yeah kind of it can feed into that imposter syndrome

[01:00:27] right of like I'm not that good but you have to step back and take stock of where you started

[01:00:34] and it's just easy to lose sight of that I think in the process yeah there's a question

[01:00:40] that I love asking which is what today do you think it's easy that you used to think was impossible

[01:00:46] and like your assets athletes I would be actually interested to hear your answer with that ever

[01:00:51] oh gosh okay like you're really catching me off guard here so let me think about it

[01:00:55] um man that is a tough one I would say not I don't know that I ever thought this was impossible

[01:01:02] but it was a really big challenge for me for a long time and that was letting go of the things

[01:01:10] that are outside of my control just from like a mental like mindset standpoint because I think

[01:01:17] when I started going way back as an athlete there was this idea in my head it kind of goes

[01:01:23] back to that idiot like oh if you just work hard you can actually see right so if I just worked

[01:01:28] hard enough that I would be able to control all of the things I needed to control in order to achieve

[01:01:33] the outcome I wanted but the further into it you get the more you realize how much is outside

[01:01:40] of your control and it is totally I mean it's a lot yeah totally it could be really discouraging

[01:01:49] to come to that conclusion and realize it because I feel like the the deeper into something that you

[01:01:54] get the more and more there is that's beyond your control and it could be really demoralizing

[01:01:59] but you learn that you control your controls so you focus your effort and attention on the things

[01:02:07] that are within your control and you learn how to adapt on the fly when things don't go to plan

[01:02:14] when the things beyond your control happen and one thing I ended up getting very good at that was

[01:02:19] a huge challenge for me was being able to do that in real time and not letting it completely

[01:02:24] derail my motivation or my mindset are you know instead of just completely giving up and be like oh

[01:02:29] well you know yeah my ducks aren't all in a row anymore I'm I might as well just give up instead

[01:02:35] of doing that mean like okay how do I figure this out how do I figure this out I'm being able to do

[01:02:38] that in real time instead of just reflectively I think was was a really big one for me but I want to

[01:02:43] hear what you're yeah yeah I mean even just on that I feel like when you look at athletes from

[01:02:51] the outside you're like and they win a race or do well or something like it's like oh everything

[01:02:55] went perfect but there was like a bunch of moments inside of that that like the world was ending

[01:03:01] I mean it was not pretty yeah totally I mean man even just a simple one like I talked about clipping

[01:03:11] in and clipping out when I moved to clips I was like this is impossible like I've written flat

[01:03:17] my whole life and the first day I rode clips I like went to the sandy downhill track and I just fell

[01:03:24] over like every turn and so I was like man I don't know if I could do this like this is

[01:03:31] I'm a world cup racer and I need to be able to take my feet off the pedals at some point but yeah

[01:03:36] after after a while like I don't even I don't even think about it anymore yeah that's a good one

[01:03:42] and it yeah it's funny that those things I I like grounding myself to with working with people

[01:03:48] who are not you know like pretty early in their journey in the sport because it's easy for me to

[01:03:53] forget the things that I didn't know how to do the things that were challenges in the beginning

[01:03:57] and it's good to kind of ground myself and remember that you know these these were things that I

[01:04:01] had to learn too and it's humbling too it's humbling on one hand on the other hand

[01:04:07] it reminds me to give myself credit for all of the growth that I've been able to do yeah for sure

[01:04:12] I'll write like the thing the thing that you are struggling with now will be that thing in a

[01:04:18] couple years or whatever you know yeah oh my gosh yeah so easy to forget that isn't it yeah well

[01:04:24] one of the things that's been recurring as a theme in this conversation which I find really

[01:04:28] interesting is that a lot of what you describe as kind of lighting your fire motivating you sustaining

[01:04:35] you over the course of this very successful very long career as a professional athlete it wasn't

[01:04:41] specific goals right I mean and I'm sure that you had goals and that you set goals and that

[01:04:47] helped but what's really surfacing now more authentically is like a deeper sense of purpose

[01:04:54] that pursuit of mastery a deeper sense of meaning that isn't tied to like one discrete goal yeah

[01:05:01] I don't know there I used to have this metaphor for this but then somebody told me it was the opposite

[01:05:06] of this um but it's like um what does it look like for a goal to be not so much okay I'm just

[01:05:16] like gonna try to make up a new one yeah let's let's do it didn't work but it's like what is a

[01:05:23] goal look like to not be like so much like a destination but just like a something in the distance

[01:05:29] that you're never really gonna reach but like it directionally points you in the right way yeah like

[01:05:33] it's like I like that I want to be rather than it's like I want to get first place it's like I want to

[01:05:39] be the best I can be on my on my bike and I know that if I am the best I can possibly be then

[01:05:47] that other one will will come if I'm doing everything right or whatever you know but like I think

[01:05:53] even just going back to the stuff we've talked about like how do I how do we make like non-deterministic

[01:05:58] goals right yeah and it's like it's not to say that you can't make like you race to win right like

[01:06:08] that is the whole thing is you're trying to beat everyone else and so it's not to say that I'm like

[01:06:12] oh like don't care about a podium or whatever you know but I think that it's for me I guess

[01:06:19] it's always been more sustainable to say like how do I point myself in the right direction and just work

[01:06:24] as hard as I possibly can at moving toward this thing and the other stuff just has to fall in place

[01:06:34] yeah I think the higher and higher the level you get the more you do realize how much is beyond your

[01:06:40] control and so setting those those really concrete you know outcome based goals gets harder and

[01:06:48] harder because your competition is different right you can't control what your competitors do

[01:06:54] and that can't be the thing that sustains you because it's just not sustainable and so moving

[01:06:59] that from a destination viewpoint to a directional viewpoint makes a lot of sense for sure and I

[01:07:05] mean I think that that's why you here in so many interviews athletes are like oh I just want to

[01:07:08] do my best yeah I mean like sometimes there is a moment where you're where you're like I'm going

[01:07:15] to win like today is I'm this is what I am gonna do etc but I think that that can feel

[01:07:23] but wearing when you hear it in interviews but I think it's also that idea because if you meet a goal

[01:07:28] you kind of like meeting expectations right because you said it you said at the beginning you're

[01:07:33] like I expect to be able to do x by the end of the year and so when you did it it's like cool

[01:07:39] like Goldstar you met expectations and if you don't then you know you didn't meet expectations

[01:07:44] and it's like a devastating thing you know that's like trivializing it a little bit but

[01:07:49] I feel like mentally maybe that was my experience like getting on the podium was just like

[01:07:58] I met some expectation and then what am I supposed to kind of do now do I just

[01:08:04] said another one where it's like now I want to be at the top and of course you do but it's

[01:08:09] it's kind of just an outcome of it rather than the the purpose I guess it's one of those things

[01:08:14] where it's a little bit hard to articulate because it's a it's an and right like of course you

[01:08:20] want to be the you want to be the best you want to stand on the podium like as many times as possible

[01:08:25] you want to achieve what you set out to get some you know hit some watts get some time up a hill

[01:08:31] like for me that was always really important when I was training but then and it has to be more than

[01:08:36] that yeah well because both can exist right like you can have a deeper bigger sense of purpose

[01:08:43] that is guiding your direction and then you can be setting these kind of smaller stepping stone

[01:08:48] goals but with the goal that's concrete um the upside is limited like you were just describing

[01:08:56] it's like the upside is limited because you're you're you're either going to meet expectations

[01:09:00] which is sort of like meh and then and then or you don't and then that's a pretty big downside right

[01:09:08] that's that's yeah I'm really devastating and so totally it's probably better than meh but

[01:09:14] it's a limited side with with this like gaping downside whereas if you if you pair those goals

[01:09:21] with the bigger sense of purpose right yeah start uh-huh then you can really get somewhere with it

[01:09:28] yeah yeah I think like going back to what you said of understanding like if I have a bigger sense

[01:09:33] of purpose I understand that a bunch of stuff is out of my control so it would be great if I can

[01:09:38] meet these expectations but I understand that a bunch of stuff could go wrong and right yeah

[01:09:43] I might not be able to get there kind of thing and then that not being able to get there yeah exactly

[01:09:49] and if you can exceed it or if you don't get there the not getting there might have nothing to do with

[01:09:54] your capability or expectation or anything to do with you which is the heartbreaking part of sport

[01:10:02] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah totally so these days in your post-racing career

[01:10:09] do you set goals for yourself do you feel a bigger sense of purpose what's driving you now yeah

[01:10:14] I think it's probably pretty similar like like with the broadcast stuff I did the commentary for

[01:10:20] the world caps for a couple years and that was super cool I think that I had kind of missed that

[01:10:27] performance aspect of racing where you're just like all right turn on don't mess up it's live

[01:10:35] kind of thing we were talking about that like non-live versus live before we started and

[01:10:42] and that was something I really enjoyed and just trying to figure out how to

[01:10:49] be the best I could be I remember the first time I did the commentary so I like play the expert role

[01:10:55] and I was like you know I know the sport of racist track I talked everyone I walked it blah blah blah

[01:11:00] and I Rob was like why don't we go into qualifying and do a little practice and I was like yeah

[01:11:07] cool and so I the first person kind of went down and I was like yeah okay there they go looking

[01:11:15] around a turn okay they're across the finish line I was like oh my god I have no idea what to say

[01:11:22] and so it was this moment of like oh I need to prep like I need to there is a level there's like

[01:11:28] levels to this as well right yeah yeah and Rob was a super good mentor and so that was really

[01:11:36] fulfilling to find that in commentating it's kind of see that expert role as like the director

[01:11:43] of attention so like how do I how do I point out something how do I give you context and so when

[01:11:49] you kind of think about it like that like what is the right way to do it how do you move something

[01:11:54] how do you move the broadcast forward and how do you make it interesting how do you like manage

[01:12:01] the the excitement through like an extended period of time but then also within each run

[01:12:07] you're trying to tell that story or whatever you know and give people kind of the quality that

[01:12:13] they deserve when they're doing this amazing thing and so I think that again it's kind of like showed

[01:12:19] up in the same way where it's still that idea of trying to figure out what the process is and like

[01:12:27] digging really deep and I think that it's a little bit more simple for me than then racing at this

[01:12:32] point but the the commentary is really the payoff after I've done all of the work like we've we had

[01:12:39] some really cool broadcast like there was one or two that I was just like that was the best

[01:12:46] that was the best like it was so good and there's definitely been ones where I'm like I want to

[01:12:51] crawl in a hole and never see anyone again but just like racing yeah yeah so I think I think about

[01:13:05] that like we Red Bull is not doing the not doing the World Cups now but we're doing like a studio

[01:13:11] show and yeah we have that podcast and still doing some other like kind of broadcasty stuff and I

[01:13:16] I enjoy that I think it's like an exploration of how do you like succinctly articulate why something

[01:13:23] is as difficult or as interesting as you see it you know or as we see it as athletes kind of thing

[01:13:29] yeah I like your description of it as being the director of attention because you're guiding people

[01:13:34] who don't necessarily know what would be interesting or to show them even just hearing you talk

[01:13:40] about like blind choice is so interesting to me because you're guiding my attention to the things

[01:13:46] that you would look for and think about that I would never look for a think about and I think

[01:13:51] that's a really beautiful thing to do totally I mean I feel like we all get glimpses of this during

[01:13:58] the Olympics because their job is to like take the viewer from nothing like I never watch curling

[01:14:05] or ping pong yeah nothing about it but I'm also watching the highest level game in the world like

[01:14:14] this is the pinnacle of the sport and so how do you take someone from no knowledge to understanding

[01:14:19] this nuance and they do a really really good job of it like most of the Olympic commentaries are

[01:14:23] really good and I'm not a big football fan I don't watch football but Tony Romo is also amazing

[01:14:30] at this like he'll say and he was like one of the he was one of the people I like studied a lot

[01:14:35] where he would be able to kind of look at the play and say oh watch number 13

[01:14:41] I think they might try to do this so like these are the places that you're gonna watch

[01:14:45] where for me like not knowing anything about football I would just see it happen and I'd be like oh

[01:14:51] I think I caught the ball like I think I got thrown here but when he would do that you would be like

[01:14:57] oh there it is I see that happening he just fake this person out he threw the ball over here like

[01:15:01] that person is gonna you know this running back is gonna catch it over here and so you could see

[01:15:05] it happening in real time and without him kind of directing you to where you needed to put your eyes

[01:15:11] you would have no idea it's such a balance too because you're you're conveying information and

[01:15:15] you're educating but it's not just that either you're trying to get people excited about it and

[01:15:21] that what you're describing that anticipation of like oh is that gonna happen there what's you

[01:15:26] know that's it's amazing yeah yeah but then like not predicting right because like if you were like

[01:15:33] hey I think he's gonna throw the ball or for me if it's like I think he's gonna be faster at the

[01:15:38] split than if you're right then you've ruined the race and if you're wrong then you're wrong

[01:15:43] so right right what is there there's also I think like an ego you know in service of

[01:15:49] of the broadcast or of the rider not so much yeah you as as the commentator kind of thing

[01:15:56] yeah well that's another great way of looking at it too that you're in service of

[01:16:00] you know the athlete and casting them in a in a light that's gonna be interesting and engaging and

[01:16:07] 100% honoring everything that they've done to be there right

[01:16:12] yeah yeah I feel like my like when I number one boss is like the athlete and then my second

[01:16:16] boss is like the producers at Red Bull and then that's pretty much it like I'm actually the

[01:16:26] like I want the fans to enjoy it but I think if if I feel like my job is to explain what this

[01:16:33] person was trying to do with their bike and they're happy with it then I've done a I've done a

[01:16:39] good job and I tell a good story kind of thing so I love that that's awesome so in your career

[01:16:46] I mean this is a way of giving back to the sport and you are well known for giving back to the

[01:16:50] sport and I'm curious is there a time that you did something that had a really positive impact

[01:16:59] that really surprised you hmm the two that are coming to mind one I was doing this so my teammate

[01:17:11] on pivot was Bernard Kerr and he's one of my best friends and um we were doing I was doing this

[01:17:17] kind of show episode for outside and we interviewed a bunch of people and I did a little zoom with him

[01:17:23] and he said I can't remember what the question was I asked him or something was but one of them was

[01:17:30] I think like what is something that I've taught you or what did you learn from me or something

[01:17:37] or how do you think about me I can't really remember but he said I used to kind of be scared

[01:17:43] of retiring or I'm not maybe maybe not scared but like I used to kind of fear it or think it was like

[01:17:49] a down part of your life but now seeing you doing all that you do I'm like excited about it

[01:17:56] and so that was something that I was like wow that was super super cool and like anything

[01:18:02] you did intentionally just totally yeah it's just he just happened to see it in that way so I

[01:18:09] that's always like really stuck with me just being who I am and doing what I'm doing like you can

[01:18:15] inspire people that even that you are inspired by I guess yeah yeah and inspiring ways that you

[01:18:21] didn't expect or intend totally yeah for sure yeah you said there was a second story that you were

[01:18:27] thinking of oh yeah this is totally different but I did a photo shoot and there was it was kind

[01:18:34] of like a movie-ish thing like it was it was like a sag thing so the screen actors guild and

[01:18:42] like there were so as people that I never worked with and at the end of the shoot one of the I

[01:18:47] think it was like the production manager was like he said my life is better because I met you

[01:18:53] and I was like that is the actually the coolest thing I've ever had anyone say to me like is that is

[01:18:57] the highlight of yeah like that line and where he said it to me like we'll stick with me the rest

[01:19:07] of my life and I just thought it was so cool that he said that oh my gosh that is yeah that's

[01:19:14] like the ultimate compliment right there yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah totally yeah well the title of

[01:19:21] this podcast is the be a good-weal podcast and I feel like that's just that sort of like encapsulate

[01:19:27] the whole thing right you know if so if you could make somebody's life better just

[01:19:34] I mean and honestly truly I think that is the case for most people and it's not something where

[01:19:40] I'm gonna thank on a day to day basis like I'm making people's lives better just by

[01:19:43] right but we do right yeah and you've and for sure like I think we've like I feel like all of us

[01:19:51] have felt that about someone like yes yeah I'm a better person I'm happy like my life is just

[01:19:57] better because I know this person yeah on that note who has been and I know it's probably more than

[01:20:03] one person but just off the top of your head who's somebody who's been a good wheel for you in

[01:20:06] your life yeah so many people probably because I'm about to go on a little vacation with him

[01:20:13] my friend Lukashah is every time there's like something that's happening in my life like I'll

[01:20:20] just call him and he just says the perfect thing and yeah like I don't know he's just been like

[01:20:27] such a such a good friend like at the he's a downhill racer like one of the best downhill racers

[01:20:33] and I can just ride with him you know hang out we can go on vacation but then yeah they're in

[01:20:41] the perfect time so I feel like that range is something that's it's really difficult to find

[01:20:47] and I appreciate him oh that's so great shout out and yeah we should all be so lucky to find such

[01:20:55] a good wheel like I think yeah so before we wrap up I have I really want to talk about you've got

[01:21:03] a couple of really cool initiatives going on so I want to hear about the Grow Cycling Foundation

[01:21:09] tell us a little bit about that yeah let's see a quick pitch it is an on-profit that we started

[01:21:17] what like three years ago now and our mission really is to create opportunity for underrepresented

[01:21:23] people using the bike because I think for me in Cycling it's given me so much like all of the things

[01:21:30] that we've talked about today or is because I rode a bike but that doesn't those like pathways

[01:21:35] don't exist for everyone you know when I was racing I was like one of the only people of color

[01:21:39] there and I think for a lot of people it just comes down to like what are you exposed to right

[01:21:47] like even going back to that idea of just serendipitously meeting someone at a dirt jump spot

[01:21:52] that happened to convince me to go to Whistler dude at the dirt jump spot I love that totally right

[01:21:58] and so I think that if you said how do you make those moments a little bit less serendipitous

[01:22:05] and I think that's kind of what we're trying to do so our first initiative was building this

[01:22:09] pump track in Inglewood California so it's some community mostly majority of color they're super

[01:22:16] ambitious they just hold the help of Super Bowl and we built this 30,000 square foot pump track is

[01:22:22] $1.2 million dollars and we raised the money and it's found at the only pump track in a radius

[01:22:28] of about three or four million people at least and we had opening day there was like maybe like a

[01:22:35] thousand kids came out and it was just super special to see you know talk to kids being like oh

[01:22:40] I told my mom that I was going to come here and she said you can't take the bus it's too far and

[01:22:44] then I told her it was only six minute ride away so like I think that was one of those moments where

[01:22:51] I went there and I you know I was in my bubble I was in you know my cycling industry bubble

[01:22:58] you know I have a cyclist bubble and when you go there people they were so many people that I

[01:23:04] just had never imagined going there even on the first day so I think that that was really cool so

[01:23:10] I uh I think we kind of think about things as like you have two levers to pull once access

[01:23:16] and once community if you don't have a place to ride you can't ride a bike that could be anything

[01:23:22] to be pump track or bike lanes or trails or velodrome or whatever and then if you don't have people

[01:23:26] to ride with then it's also uninteresting kind of that idea of like sport desire like why would I

[01:23:31] do this in the first place so for us it's about saying okay the bike can allow you to go and race

[01:23:38] downhill compete for your country and the world championships it can let you be a product manager

[01:23:44] and train a road it can you know it can provide friendship or you can be an engineer an artist

[01:23:50] and so how do we create as many of those pathways as possible just by kind of giving people the

[01:23:55] tools that they need and kind of empowering them with the opportunities that if they could want

[01:23:59] and and just allowing people to have the choice yeah and it's been super cool like I

[01:24:05] it's work with my mom and that is one of the most fulfilling things ever uh pulled her out of retirement

[01:24:11] so we just yeah we talk about it almost every day yeah right yeah yeah like she's yeah she's

[01:24:19] like the most incredible woman ever and um I'm just really really excited about it and even just

[01:24:27] going back to that thread of for me the providing the opportunity building something for like the young

[01:24:32] Jackson family if you will and um having an outlet for like my business strategy partnership

[01:24:40] section of myself like it's cool like I love it and uh it's been yeah it's been great well

[01:24:45] it's also your software developers out of yourself because I was checking out the website and you

[01:24:48] have a whole app for the contracts which is so brilliant because uh you've created a physical gathering

[01:24:56] place but you've also created a virtual component of it and gamified it and you're bringing in

[01:25:02] you know participation sponsors I mean honestly it's just like from a product management perspective

[01:25:07] this is just brilliant okay thank you thank you yeah it was um even even like that like the kind

[01:25:14] of the strategy and ego piece of that one of the reasons why we wanted to do that was because

[01:25:19] we built the pump track and there was a bunch of people uh who who kind of like claimed it on

[01:25:25] Instagram like we had a fence up for a long time and a bunch of like skateboarders and bank writers

[01:25:30] would like come hop in and then post on tiktok and Instagram and youtube like just found this secret

[01:25:36] pump track like blah blah blah um and like all good it was it was so funny I felt so old and

[01:25:42] same time because I was like just stay out please but also like hop the fence and come in and ride it

[01:25:48] um there's like the the curmudgeonly side of you totally totally just like just follow the rules

[01:25:53] check just just figure it out um but it was crazy because there was there was like a couple

[01:25:59] people on Instagram that like some dude made like a LA pump track Instagram and we were like

[01:26:07] any would go and post and be like hey nice we just got the sodden like won't be long now and like

[01:26:15] you know like kind of making it seem like it was it was his and so it was a super interesting

[01:26:22] like exploration of ego because it was like well what is what's wrong with that right like if

[01:26:29] you want to own it like it's for in their eyes they just think it's this public place they don't know

[01:26:34] that we can spend all this time and money and whatever doing it and why do we need them to know kind

[01:26:42] of thing right and so it's almost like the opposite to where and we so typically like right when

[01:26:48] you're making a brand it's like cool like how do we own this um space as much and a lot of time

[01:26:54] you do that through content and we're like not a content company and so it's like well okay how do

[01:26:58] we actually enable people to make as much content as possible like how do we give them some brand

[01:27:04] kit or like you know we're partnered with GoPro like how do we make a much of ambassadors and like

[01:27:09] have people who have huge Instagrams for it and the interesting thing that we have is like access

[01:27:16] to signage and being able to hold events there and so if we can say okay the source of truth for

[01:27:21] this thing is like this app so you can see what the hours are you can see the events like all

[01:27:26] of these different things um you can kind of check in do your thing a little gamified experience

[01:27:32] but I think it was super interesting to kind of think through that of well how do we how do we

[01:27:37] make it so people actually know what is happening here um if we're not going to be the biggest

[01:27:42] Instagram or Facebook page out this place and like yeah how do you tamp down your ego to say like

[01:27:52] I don't actually need people to know that we built it because it's for everyone else and that

[01:27:57] shouldn't even come into their mind they should just enjoy this space. That's such an interesting

[01:28:01] exploration right because it's not it's not just a thought experiment it's a very real situation

[01:28:07] where you're having to have that gut check of wow this feels really crummy and is it because I need

[01:28:12] credit for what we did and it's the thing you've done being building this for the community to

[01:28:19] own really yeah yeah yeah but I think I think what you've done is a beautiful because there's

[01:28:27] a balance right like yes you want people to feel like it's theirs but also the source of truth is

[01:28:33] important too right because they intended use and the rules and how do you do how do you use it safely

[01:28:38] and with respect and how do you honor exactly the purpose and the intent of it and totally yeah those

[01:28:44] aren't unimportant but how do you how do you solve for that and that I think what you've done is just

[01:28:50] like it's a really elegant solution it's it's very cool thank you Amber so what other uh what other

[01:28:57] stuff are you guys have going on with girl cycling foundation I mean that's a huge milestone

[01:29:01] that you've already hit so I don't I don't want to like oh totally let's move on but you know

[01:29:05] what else you guys have gone on no yeah so like one of the big things that we've had going on for

[01:29:10] a little while now is the jobs board so it was kind of like this cycling industry jobs board and so

[01:29:17] that has been really cool I've heard a bunch of people who have gotten jobs who they're which is like

[01:29:22] crazy one of the people Hannah nap who is the kind of social media person at pink bike outside she

[01:29:29] was like oh yeah I found my job yeah that's amazing that's amazing yeah so that's been really cool

[01:29:37] and then I think right now just kind of like taking a little bit of a beat to say we've got this

[01:29:42] space up let's see how the community engages we are trying to be like really intentional about

[01:29:48] yeah talking to as many people as we can we have some cycling school programs in in Inglewood as well

[01:29:55] the goal is to obviously have some in every single school but I think it's about saying right now

[01:30:00] what's the right way to engage and even back to the idea of pulling the string and depth not breath

[01:30:07] look like to create this like cycling ecosystem here so back to the opportunity piece you can go

[01:30:13] here and get a job like how do we introduce people how do we do training how do you do mechanicking

[01:30:18] what is what are the holes that exist and then how do we like systematically like fill all of them

[01:30:26] that is really cool well where can people find more information and how can they support what you're

[01:30:31] doing yeah you can go to growcyclingfoundation.org and find everything you need to there you could

[01:30:38] follow us on Instagram to grow cycling foundation you can donate we have some different initiatives

[01:30:46] that kind of pop up every now and then like partnering with companies and stuff like that so that's

[01:30:50] that's super cool so when you when you see one of those and then I don't know back to your idea

[01:30:54] of like being a good wheel I think it's kind of the most important thing because if if everyone kind

[01:31:01] of yeah if everyone kind of does their part and invites people in or even more so kind of

[01:31:09] empowers people to take the path that they've taken I think that it makes our job easier and in

[01:31:16] some cases obsolete which is amazing yeah right that's kind of it's funny to say that but it is

[01:31:21] sort of the point right like wouldn't be nice if all of these effort like we didn't need to put

[01:31:25] in the effort to make these efforts and yeah totally the goal yeah yeah well that's a beautiful

[01:31:31] way of tying it back so thank you so much for that plug and thank you for coming on the show this

[01:31:36] has been this has been a lot of fun I feel like we can even dig deeper on a lot of what we talked

[01:31:41] about today but well maybe save that for a future episode and yeah thank you so much Elliot this

[01:31:47] has been a lot of fun yeah likewise thank you everyone as an interviewer it's my job to ask

[01:31:53] questions of my guest but this conversation with Elliot got me asking myself new questions which

[01:31:58] I love I also love how much of what he describes runs counter to many traditional assumptions about

[01:32:04] the promise and how much his insights apply beyond the competitive arena he makes clear how

[01:32:10] important it is to commit to finding what works for you because it might be different from what you

[01:32:14] first assumed would work lean into that space between bullet points folks because as Elliot points

[01:32:20] out that's where the growth happens and where we find the most interesting and exciting moments in

[01:32:26] life thank you for joining us for today's episode if you loved today's show remember to subscribe

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