Learning, Unlearning, and Showing Up with Pete Morris

Amber speaks with entrepreneur, workplace wellness expert, and former pro cyclist Pete Morris. Pete explores the intersection of personal growth, health, and performance, drawing parallels between bike racing and workplace productivity. He discusses the importance of unlearning outdated habits and the complexities of team dynamics. Pete shares tips on how to handle mistakes and communicate in ways that support morale and psychological safety. He offers a practical guide to cultivating more joy and getting more value out of your work, including how to integrate regular breaks, how to create opportunities for learning, and how to practice true presence. He reveals the secret to fostering openness within team and workplace dynamics, no matter what your role. Pete opens up about his experiences building Free Lap Collective, a retail shop focused on community and connection through a shared love of the outdoors. He discusses the interdependence of different life roles, and how shifting focus from performance to connection can create the intangible magic that occurs when a group comes together to work in harmony.

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Mentioned in this episode:

- Free Lap - https://freelap.cc

[00:00:00] It's honestly the most important thing that happens.

[00:00:02] I do think it matters on your deliverables and it matters which KPIs you're moving and it matters all those things.

[00:00:09] But really at the end of the day, it matters who you are and who you interact with and what you guys do together in a positive way.

[00:00:20] And that's what you'll remember.

[00:00:22] And that's the connection that you have.

[00:00:24] And that's the good example that you're leading by.

[00:00:26] And that's the ones that people remember.

[00:00:29] And jobs are just jobs.

[00:00:32] But who you are at your job is what actually really matters.

[00:00:36] That's former bike racer and current expert in workplace health and productivity, Pete Morris,

[00:00:41] speaking about the importance of how we show up in our different roles in life, including our role at work.

[00:00:46] You're listening to the Be A Good Wheel podcast, the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel

[00:00:51] by digging into scientific research and personal stories about human potential and performance.

[00:00:57] I'm your host, Amber Pierce.

[00:01:00] Today, we're joined by Pete Morris, who's made an incredible transition from racing with Team Cliff Bar to crushing it in the tech world.

[00:01:07] Pete spent years racing on the national criterium circuit.

[00:01:10] In contrast to longer road races, criteriums are shorter, faster, and a more technical racing format.

[00:01:16] These courses usually wind through a short loop with many corners, which is repeated over the course of an hour to 90 minutes.

[00:01:22] The format lends itself to much faster speeds, more dynamic strategy, and usually favors powerful riders with quick accelerations like sprinters.

[00:01:30] Pete excelled in this format, and especially in the cycling-specific role of domestique.

[00:01:34] Domestiques are the helpers on the team, those who use their efforts to increase the odds of a teammate winning the race rather than racing for themselves.

[00:01:41] Pete's talent for sprinting and technical riding, combined with his positive collaborative attitude,

[00:01:45] made him a formidable and respected domestique.

[00:01:48] After hanging up his pro racing kit, Pete dove into product management in the tech industry,

[00:01:53] where he's helping build products that keep people healthy and engaged.

[00:01:56] In doing so, he spends a lot of his time analyzing data on what actually helps productivity and health in the workplace.

[00:02:02] But that's not all.

[00:02:03] Pete is also juggling life as a co-founder of Freelap Collective,

[00:02:07] a business that he started to fuel his passion for cycling and community.

[00:02:10] We'll chat about how he balances work, life, and business,

[00:02:13] and how his racing mindset still drives him to push boundaries in everything he does.

[00:02:18] I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

[00:02:21] Pete, it's great to see you.

[00:02:22] Welcome to the show.

[00:02:23] Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:25] I'm very excited about this one.

[00:02:27] Me too.

[00:02:28] I want to dive in and ask you, so with your background,

[00:02:31] I think there's so much that we can dig into here in terms of the overlap between among what you learn as an athlete,

[00:02:39] what you learn in business as an employee,

[00:02:42] and then, of course, your work now in the work and wellness industry,

[00:02:45] and then pulling in your experience as a founder of your own company.

[00:02:50] There's just a lot of richness that we can get into here.

[00:02:52] But I want to know, with all of that experience,

[00:02:56] is there something that stands out to you as being something that you've had to unlearn over time?

[00:03:03] Ooh, that's...

[00:03:04] I think the thing that is most important that I've learned is that I actually have to constantly unlearn things.

[00:03:13] And that there needs to be a drop-off of the way you used to do things and the way you do things now.

[00:03:19] And so, as I go through and measure out my weeks and think about all the different things on my plate,

[00:03:26] the first one is there's always less important things that don't need to happen.

[00:03:30] And as soon as I figured out that there's not, how do I get 90 things done this week?

[00:03:36] It's which are the 50 things I have to get done?

[00:03:38] And then some of those other 40 things don't matter at all and may never matter.

[00:03:43] And if they occupy a bunch of space in your brain, you will have to carry that load with you over and over and over week after week.

[00:03:53] So, I'm all about unlearning things that aren't critical to living and existing and being a person along with business and as an employee.

[00:04:03] But if you carry around the load, you're going to feel the load that you're carrying around with you.

[00:04:08] So, I think unlearning things that aren't worth your time and making sure you don't do them is the biggest thing I've learned.

[00:04:16] That's huge.

[00:04:17] That's huge.

[00:04:17] And that reminds me, like when you and I would do like race analysis videos together,

[00:04:23] it was one thing that always stood out to me was how easily we could ignore the noise, right?

[00:04:31] Like focusing on the signal and tune out the noise.

[00:04:33] And I think that over time, I've come to think of people who are expert in what they do as people who know what they don't have to focus on, right?

[00:04:42] Like when you think about somebody who's just getting into bike racing as an example,

[00:04:47] they're thinking about all of the things that, you know, where do I break?

[00:04:50] When do I shift?

[00:04:51] Who's around me?

[00:04:52] What lap are we on?

[00:04:54] And they're thinking about all the things.

[00:04:56] But then once the further you get into the sport, the more you realize what among those things isn't relevant.

[00:05:02] Like you said, like it's not actually a priority.

[00:05:05] It might not even matter.

[00:05:07] So, you don't have to think about it.

[00:05:09] And the more expert you become, you start to develop that cognitive efficiency, right?

[00:05:13] So, you don't have that full cognitive load all the time.

[00:05:15] Yeah.

[00:05:16] And the bike racing piece is perfect.

[00:05:19] As you focus more on specific things, you also do better at those specific things.

[00:05:24] And so, not only are you not spending time, you're actually using your energy more wisely in life.

[00:05:31] And so, like if you only have to pay attention to the one move with the two or three people in it, like that's a much easier place to be.

[00:05:38] And if you only have two or three real things to worry about this week at work or in your personal life, you're going to be ready.

[00:05:44] You're going to be excited and you're going to like be able to be fully present and do the right job when it comes up.

[00:05:54] So, going back to bike racing for a moment, how do you think that you learned how to do that as an athlete?

[00:05:59] Was that something that seemed kind of obvious to you from the start or was that something that you had to learn over time?

[00:06:05] You know, I think as we get older, you have some realizations about yourself, I guess is the right way to put it.

[00:06:13] But I like to pay attention to a lot of things all at once.

[00:06:17] Like it's stimulating to me, it keeps my brain engaged.

[00:06:21] And so, bike racing is this wonderful scenario where there's a billion things to pay attention to.

[00:06:26] So, that's super sort of engaging and beneficial to my brain chemistry, honestly.

[00:06:33] And so, I also function that way in life, too.

[00:06:36] Like I like to pay attention to the cars driving by and, you know, look at the leaves and think about what's on the radio and all of that.

[00:06:44] And so, there is definitely a space that I occupy where I like to know what's going on and like to be kind of situationally aware of all the things,

[00:06:51] which is both a positive and a detriment to the way I run through life.

[00:06:58] So, I think bike racing is easy because there was almost no detriment or at least at the beginning to paying attention to everything.

[00:07:05] And then as I progress through the ranks, you realize that there's stuff that's not worth your time.

[00:07:09] But I think at life, it's the same way where I absolutely have to sort of take the world as it comes at me.

[00:07:16] And I'm just and think about all the things that keeps me a human and, you know, makes me grow and change and evolve and be the person I am.

[00:07:24] But it's absolutely about turning that into forward movement rather than sort of getting lost in this space where you can pay attention to everything all the time.

[00:07:35] And at bike racing, for sure, it was everything all at once at the beginning.

[00:07:39] And then as you turn it into what's going to bring me one step closer to winning or what's going to bring me one step closer to doing my job better or what's one step closer to not getting dropped.

[00:07:50] And all of those things like turn into forward progress in the race rather than sort of this.

[00:07:56] If I'm thinking about it all, you can only pick and choose, right?

[00:08:00] You only have so many moves or so many matches, chess pieces, however you want to say it.

[00:08:05] But you absolutely have to pick and choose what you're doing in the bike race rather than responding and acting upon everything.

[00:08:13] Yeah. Do you remember something specific that you had a realization about that was something where you suddenly realized this is something that's not important that I don't actually have to pay attention to?

[00:08:22] Yes. I do remember. I think about myself as someone who takes corners pretty well.

[00:08:28] And as a current racer, that's pretty important. And I used to back that up.

[00:08:32] I really remember thinking that I did race cars or like sports, sports car club of America and track days and stuff right before I started cycling.

[00:08:41] I did not know that.

[00:08:42] Yeah, it was. It's a whole nother thing. But cars are really expensive.

[00:08:47] And as a 20 year old, it's way easier to train more on your bike and get the same sort of thrill than buy tires and gas and track days and things like that.

[00:08:56] So I used to think that I was definitely the best at taking corners because I was young and dumb and had experience.

[00:09:04] And then what I realized is it's much more important to take the best line through the corner based on everyone around you rather than what you can do.

[00:09:14] So there's always the fastest way through the corner.

[00:09:16] If there's no one else around, of course, you can take it perfectly.

[00:09:21] But the corner is different every time because you're coming in on the inside or the outside or the middle.

[00:09:26] There's different people around you.

[00:09:28] And so all of a sudden you have how do you make the most out of this, you know, next 15 seconds.

[00:09:35] So you have the five seconds before the corner, five seconds through the corner and five seconds afterwards.

[00:09:39] And it has nothing to do with what the perfect line does matter, but it almost has nothing to do with what the situation you're going to be in is.

[00:09:48] And so I remember unlearning the right way to take corners because all of a sudden that doesn't matter anymore.

[00:09:57] I mean, I guess if you're off the front solo, great.

[00:10:00] Or off the back solo, great.

[00:10:01] You can take those corners perfectly.

[00:10:03] But 95% of the time you're at the mercy of everybody else.

[00:10:07] Plus what you can do to sort of make the corner more yours than everybody else's.

[00:10:11] That's such a cool analogy because you have the concept of the ideal, right?

[00:10:17] So we know what the ideal line through a corner is theoretically.

[00:10:21] But when it comes to applying the ideal in real life, we have to consider context and circumstances that are often beyond our control.

[00:10:31] And so, you know, like you're saying, like in the crit, the fastest way through the corner might not be the ideal line because the situation is going to call for something different every time.

[00:10:40] Which is really cool.

[00:10:41] And this is going to seem like a leap, but I feel like we're going to let's use this analogy to segue.

[00:10:46] I love it.

[00:10:48] Love it.

[00:10:48] Let's do it.

[00:10:49] In the wellness industry and what you're doing, you're looking at a lot of data that's really driving towards like looking at what really is effective in the workplace in terms of productivity and health.

[00:11:00] And what comes to mind when I think about this analogy is we have these like very precisely designed experiments, you know, in science.

[00:11:08] And then those get published as studies.

[00:11:11] And then people read the study and think like, oh, this is the ideal line.

[00:11:14] And then try to recreate that in life when they're actually moving through a corner in the middle of a pack.

[00:11:20] Yes.

[00:11:22] What have you learned about taking the theory and the ideal and the study and actually applying that real world?

[00:11:29] Yeah.

[00:11:30] Every person is different.

[00:11:33] I mean, I hate that we start with that, but the best it's so true.

[00:11:38] And so I think the thing about kind of wellness and let's just call it being an employee, right?

[00:11:45] Like your work-life balance and what that means to you is the way you occupy yourself outside of work matters greatly at how you occupy yourself at work.

[00:11:56] Yeah.

[00:11:56] So you aren't two magical people that once 530 hits or whatever, you're this new different person.

[00:12:03] And so...

[00:12:04] Unless you're a character in Severance, but...

[00:12:06] I did think that did pop into my head too.

[00:12:10] Sorry.

[00:12:11] So maybe someday, but as of right now...

[00:12:15] In our current tech.

[00:12:16] And so you really have to treat them as two sides of the same coin.

[00:12:20] And so the way you take care of yourself outside of work is going to dramatically impact how you feel and your excitement levels and energy levels and productivity levels at work.

[00:12:32] And so if you are...

[00:12:34] I mean, the easy one is if you're sleeping well, not only does it increase like how you're able to process things during the day,

[00:12:42] but your attitude, how you're able to deal with, say, negative situations at work, but positive situations at work.

[00:12:50] And so if not...

[00:12:52] Just like as a...

[00:12:53] If you're taking care of yourself to be the best athlete you can, you're going to prioritize sleep.

[00:12:58] And if you want to be...

[00:12:59] I know not everybody wants to...

[00:13:01] Or let's actually phrase this correctly.

[00:13:04] Everybody can be who they want to be at work.

[00:13:06] But if you want to be better than who you are or you like where you are, sleeping more or sleeping better is going to ensure that you stay that way or possibly be better.

[00:13:17] And it goes much beyond the ability to sort of see beyond the space you occupy.

[00:13:25] And so if you're well rested, you have the situational awareness we're talking about.

[00:13:29] You're going to see much more about who's in the corner and what's going on.

[00:13:33] Where if you're already kind of on the ragged edge, it doesn't matter how smart and how capable and how productive you are.

[00:13:39] Because you won't be able to see kind of everything else that's happening at the same time.

[00:13:43] But so sleep's the easy one, but we can dig into more.

[00:13:46] Can we call that the basic one?

[00:13:48] Because I feel like it's not always easy.

[00:13:50] Yes, the requirement.

[00:13:51] Requirement.

[00:13:53] Yes.

[00:13:54] The easy...

[00:13:55] Well, not...

[00:13:55] I was going to say easy win, but that's easy again.

[00:13:57] But yeah, a high return on investment, we'll say.

[00:14:00] High return on investment.

[00:14:02] And I would say if you don't want to change any other thing about yourself, you just want to sleep like a good chunk of time for yourself.

[00:14:09] And I think even the hours, I mean, I've looked at a lot of data.

[00:14:14] Hours are sort of less relevant than consistent bedtime and wake up time for everybody.

[00:14:19] That generally improves morale and happiness and energy levels.

[00:14:23] And so if you still can only sleep six hours a night, just make sure or make sure you're doing that at the same six hours all the time.

[00:14:31] Interesting.

[00:14:31] But I would say that's easily the biggest ROI piece you can do.

[00:14:36] And not...

[00:14:37] The best part about that is it also makes you easier and happier to deal with outside of work.

[00:14:42] So for all your other friends and family and acquaintances, but your colleagues will appreciate it too.

[00:14:49] And you will be sharper at work.

[00:14:51] I think it's easy.

[00:14:53] Just...

[00:14:53] Sorry, we've got to stop saying easy.

[00:14:55] It's very correlated, very correlated from quality and quantity of sleep to how you perform the rest of those hours of the day.

[00:15:05] Right.

[00:15:05] It's simple, right?

[00:15:06] Because it's not like you don't have to go spend a bunch of money to buy some fancy technology.

[00:15:11] You don't have to...

[00:15:12] You know, it's something that is really accessible to anybody to at least trials.

[00:15:19] You know, having a toddler at the moment is anything but easy.

[00:15:23] And this really resonates because one of the things that I have...

[00:15:27] A while back, I started trying to do this a little better, but I would have these days where I would just...

[00:15:31] It almost didn't matter what was happening.

[00:15:34] Like, it could have been a good day, bad day, whatever.

[00:15:36] But I just had this overwhelming feeling of overwhelm and just feeling like useless.

[00:15:42] Like, I'll never be able to...

[00:15:44] I'm, you know, I'm not up to handling what I need to handle and just feeling kind of inept and helpless.

[00:15:51] And I would always stop myself before like going down that rabbit hole and just say, okay, quick check.

[00:15:57] When was the last time you ate?

[00:15:59] Yes.

[00:16:01] And have I been hydrating?

[00:16:02] And then did I sleep well last night?

[00:16:04] And it's funny, that particular sort of flavor of despair has, for me, always correlated specifically with sleep.

[00:16:13] And when I get good sleep, it almost doesn't matter what's happening around me.

[00:16:17] I feel capable in a way that I don't.

[00:16:20] Like, that's the first thing to go is when I lose sleep, I just...

[00:16:23] I suddenly...

[00:16:23] I feel totally incapable.

[00:16:25] And it's incredibly disempowering.

[00:16:28] And it's very physiological.

[00:16:29] Yes.

[00:16:31] And it really weighs...

[00:16:33] Or it's amazing how impactful it is to every single thing you do that day.

[00:16:37] Yes.

[00:16:38] Right?

[00:16:38] Like those feelings that you feel sort of paint every single thing you do that day.

[00:16:45] And so it really does come back to you're on top of it because you can check in with yourself.

[00:16:51] And I think we probably could have talked about that even before the sleep.

[00:16:55] But if you look back, if you think about how you're feeling that day, that's going to tell you much more about kind of what you might be missing or what you might need to do better at than just applying this ideal.

[00:17:08] Like, this is almost applying science.

[00:17:10] Like, here's a paper.

[00:17:11] Sleep more.

[00:17:12] Get quality sleep and you're going to be better.

[00:17:14] But it's...

[00:17:15] For some people, the sleep might actually be totally adequate right now.

[00:17:18] And they might still be feeling something.

[00:17:21] And unless they check in on themselves, they will never actually begin to understand what could be causing them to feel certain things that isn't what they would choose to feel.

[00:17:31] Yeah.

[00:17:31] And I mean, for sure, there could be other things at work that might be causing those same feelings.

[00:17:36] But it's always nice to rule out those basics, right?

[00:17:39] Like nutrition, sleep.

[00:17:41] Like, just am I getting my basic needs met?

[00:17:43] Like, let's rule that out first, meet those basic needs, and then see what's happening and then address what's happening at that point.

[00:17:51] Because otherwise, it's so easy to...

[00:17:54] I could go down that rabbit hole, right?

[00:17:55] Unless I stop myself and say, oh, this might be sleep.

[00:17:58] Okay, I'm going to put a pin in this for the moment.

[00:18:01] And then I'm going to try to get a good night's sleep tonight.

[00:18:03] And then I'll come back and see how I feel about it tomorrow.

[00:18:05] And then if I feel the same way after a good night of sleep, that might give me a different direction, a different line of questioning, right?

[00:18:11] But if I feel better after that night of sleep, then it's like, oh, okay.

[00:18:15] That was all it was.

[00:18:16] And I saved myself from going down that rabbit hole.

[00:18:21] Yeah, it's very easy to cast...

[00:18:24] It's very easy to look for blame, I guess.

[00:18:27] When if you're not doing the things that you can control, then when you are not controlling those things you can control, it's much easier to look for blame.

[00:18:36] And whether it's in the workplace or a workload problem, it doesn't really matter what it is, but you're going to look outward instead of inward.

[00:18:45] And I think we can dig into what that looks like.

[00:18:49] But I think a lot of people look outward for why they feel a certain way at work.

[00:18:54] And a big chunk of that is how they are taking care of themselves and how they approach work.

[00:18:59] That's so interesting.

[00:19:00] Yeah.

[00:19:01] Yeah.

[00:19:01] So let's unpack that for a minute because that actually brings us back to the bike racing piece again.

[00:19:06] And I loved that you used the phrase control the controllables because that's, you know, one of the things I think you and I have talked about.

[00:19:14] I don't know how many times, but it's worth discussing because it's so important.

[00:19:18] And that's an empowering thing to do, right?

[00:19:20] Because when you're trying to control things that are not within your control, you will by definition fail.

[00:19:25] Like, and you will feel powerless and it's not great.

[00:19:29] But when you're controlling the things that are within your control, that's where you can earn those small victories that build confidence, that build that self-efficacy.

[00:19:37] And that's definitely something that I feel like bike racing taught me in a way that was harder to see in other aspects of life.

[00:19:46] Like bike racing, it was just so clear that like, yeah, I don't control the weather.

[00:19:51] Like that would be ridiculous.

[00:19:52] You know, like I can't control which direction the wind is coming from.

[00:19:56] I can't control my competitors.

[00:19:57] I am in control of my own bike.

[00:20:00] Like it just, it made everything so clear in a way that I was able to kind of integrate that lesson.

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:08] And it really is about those like small winds.

[00:20:13] And I think you have to stack small winds, right?

[00:20:17] Like in life, period, the end.

[00:20:20] So whatever, whatever the small winds can be and what you can control will make you feel better.

[00:20:26] And so, yeah, the weather, who knows?

[00:20:30] The workplace or like who you're, which project you're on or who you're having to work with.

[00:20:34] Like you don't really get to say much about that most of the time.

[00:20:38] But what you can do is you can think about kind of what you're bringing to the table.

[00:20:44] And I think this is also goes along kind of with the team side of things.

[00:20:47] But you really have to understand how you work with someone and how to sort of puzzle piece together in the right way to make both you and that person or you in the group or you and your boss better than just you.

[00:21:01] One plus one equals two.

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:03] And I think that's a controllable thing where you have the ability to bring a version of yourself that's likely the same version.

[00:21:12] But if you think about who you're working with and how they see you and how you can kind of collaborate on something,

[00:21:19] that is going to make everybody have a much better time and see kind of it's going to make your interactions easier.

[00:21:27] It's going to break this sort of outward facing piece of as an employee, I am this thing and this is what I bring to the table.

[00:21:34] And instead, it's as an employee, how do I work the best with all of these people to get the things done?

[00:21:41] Yeah.

[00:21:41] And I think that's the one that's hard and that's the one that always goes away.

[00:21:46] And especially if you're in a if you haven't slept well or there's something negative happening.

[00:21:50] But I think you're hangry.

[00:21:52] Yeah, like you're hangry.

[00:21:53] Like you skipped breakfast this morning because daycare was late or something like that.

[00:21:58] But I always think about it like just like bike racing, you forget the good stuff you're supposed to do all the time.

[00:22:04] You never you never do everything exactly right.

[00:22:07] Right. And so what you can do is you can do most things right most of the time.

[00:22:11] And that's going to do a lot for you.

[00:22:13] And so at work, you can definitely forget or misremember or, you know, be unprepared or all of these things.

[00:22:21] But it's just one of the thousand decisions you make that day.

[00:22:25] And so you can make most of them right most of the time or do the best you can most of the time.

[00:22:32] And that's like the upward trajectory that you'll need.

[00:22:34] And that's the one that people will see.

[00:22:37] And we can we could do one small flag for everybody.

[00:22:41] Nobody thinks about your work the same way you do.

[00:22:44] And so when you think you made a huge mistake or everybody's thinking about something you've done that's negative,

[00:22:51] remember that you are such a small piece of their world and they might think about it a little bit.

[00:22:58] But the way you think about it is dramatically different than the way they think about it.

[00:23:02] So as long as you sort of skip ahead, go on to the next thing, make pretty good choices, most of the time they will never remember that one blip that occupied the next four hours of your afternoon.

[00:23:15] You just ruminating and thinking about it.

[00:23:18] And I think the faster you can sort of remind yourself over and over in the workplace that everybody has their own microcosm that they live in, but everybody else is only seeing a piece of that.

[00:23:29] And so make sure the piece that they can see of you is a beneficial, like collaborative partner.

[00:23:37] Yeah, this is making me smile.

[00:23:39] So one thing I love that you're describing is it's about how you show up.

[00:23:43] And that's really fundamentally like what I think about being a good wheel is right.

[00:23:48] It's not about being a great athlete or perfect or all of those things.

[00:23:52] It's being actively aware of and deliberate about how you show up in the world.

[00:23:58] So how you show up for yourself, for other people, for your community.

[00:24:00] So I love that framing on it.

[00:24:03] I just want to jump back to that idea of ruminating on the way that other people see your work because it's making me laugh because this is exactly what I'm experiencing with our toddler.

[00:24:13] Because there are moments where she will get so upset over something.

[00:24:16] And to me, my husband, it's like in our minds, it's the most ridiculous, tiny little thing.

[00:24:23] But then I have to stop and remember, like, she's only been alive for three years.

[00:24:28] So the time alone, the fraction of her life that this is occupied already is vast.

[00:24:36] And then in her mind, her world is small.

[00:24:39] And what is important to her is legitimately important to her.

[00:24:42] And so she might be mourning the loss of some toy that to us seems like so fleeting and minor.

[00:24:51] But for her, it's a genuine loss that she's grieving and it matters to her in a way that's far more significant than we can imagine.

[00:24:58] And I have to stop myself from being dismissive of her feeling so strongly about something because it's like, who am I to say that that doesn't matter?

[00:25:07] I mean, in her world and her experience of this world so far, like, that is one of the most important things in her life.

[00:25:12] And it, you know, it just didn't go her way or was taken away or whatever.

[00:25:16] And to acknowledge that, you know, and it's just so I'm thinking like, oh, how many times have I been the toddler?

[00:25:25] In my own life, getting so upset about something that really matters to me.

[00:25:30] And because it matters to me, I then project that onto people around me and assume that it also matters to them.

[00:25:35] But no, in this situation, I'm the toddler.

[00:25:38] Yeah.

[00:25:39] And I think it's so good to think about it from the toddler's perspective because it does matter.

[00:25:44] And they're like the feelings that you feel are super valid.

[00:25:47] And if you are just like whatever it is, but remind yourself toddlers can't do this.

[00:25:54] That remind yourself if only.

[00:25:56] But it really does come back to you're a piece of this huge picture and your piece than the parts that occupy your brain and what you spend the most time and energy on is 90 percent you and 10 percent other people.

[00:26:11] And so as long as you think about why you felt the feelings you're feeling and what you could have done differently.

[00:26:19] I mean, it's bike racing.

[00:26:21] One on one didn't go well.

[00:26:23] What did I do wrong?

[00:26:24] What could I do better next time?

[00:26:26] OK, do I have a plan for next time?

[00:26:28] Yes.

[00:26:28] All right.

[00:26:29] We're going to try to stick to that plan for next time.

[00:26:32] And then you see what happens.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:34] But it's much harder.

[00:26:35] It's really easy when we say it just like that.

[00:26:38] But when you're in the moment, I think give yourself the time and energy to feel those things, because if you feel bad, like there's a real valid reason for that.

[00:26:47] But then really focus on the outward piece where this is much less important to a lot of other people and the projection isn't required to both explain or help them understand.

[00:27:00] And that's up to you to explain and help yourself understand.

[00:27:04] But then after that, it's all about on to the next one.

[00:27:08] And what can you do different next time?

[00:27:10] I love this.

[00:27:11] It's bringing up the idea of shame.

[00:27:13] And I'll explain what I mean by that.

[00:27:15] So when I think of myself as a toddler, I want to reiterate what you said, because I think it's so important.

[00:27:20] And if I'm the one that's feeling like this big, important thing is something I made a mistake and this feels huge and really distressing for me, and I assume that it's distressing for other people, just because it's not as distressing for them doesn't mean that my distress isn't also valid or that it's not actually important, like you said.

[00:27:37] And I think that's a – I want to just emphasize that point.

[00:27:40] And it's not that the other people are looking at you thinking, oh, that's no big deal the way I'm looking at my toddler going like, what are you even upset about?

[00:27:48] It's just that it's like you said, it's not occupying the same space in their mind because it's not their thing or their circle of influence or even their purview.

[00:27:59] And by worrying about what other people think, you then add this layer, right?

[00:28:03] So you already have the layer of distress over this supposedly big mistake you've made.

[00:28:09] You could stop there and do exactly what you said.

[00:28:12] Okay, I feel distressed about this mistake.

[00:28:14] What did I do wrong?

[00:28:15] Move forward and try again better.

[00:28:17] Next time.

[00:28:18] Or you can take that extra step and add a layer, which is everybody else is probably distressed about this.

[00:28:25] And that's this really dense, heavy layer of shame, really.

[00:28:30] And that introduces a really different dynamic, you know, interpersonal relationships and especially within the dynamic of a team.

[00:28:37] Yes, it's one of those ones where we all acknowledge that we care a lot about the person that we bring forward and to all the places we go.

[00:28:48] And work is a huge part of almost everybody's lives.

[00:28:52] Like, it's the biggest chunk you spend.

[00:28:54] Like, I spend way more time at work than I do with my toddler.

[00:28:57] Right?

[00:28:58] Yeah.

[00:28:58] For example.

[00:28:59] But I think it goes back to if you've done something that makes you feel that way, like, that's okay.

[00:29:04] People make mistakes all the time.

[00:29:07] All the time.

[00:29:08] It's worse than, I mean, maybe I, I don't know.

[00:29:12] It's worse than I thought it would be as a young person versus what I know now.

[00:29:16] Everybody makes mistakes all the time.

[00:29:18] And most of them don't cause, they all cause problems.

[00:29:22] They all cause frustrations.

[00:29:24] But I think it's up to you to sort of sink into why you're feeling that way and what you did.

[00:29:31] And would you have done it differently?

[00:29:32] I think it goes back to sometimes you do the best you can.

[00:29:36] And like, if you know, knowing what you know now, would you would have done anything differently?

[00:29:40] And if not, then like, that's okay.

[00:29:43] That's like the way it is.

[00:29:44] And that happens to a lot of people a lot of the time.

[00:29:46] But I think that's probably the biggest sort of translation of workplace stress that gets passed around a lot.

[00:29:55] People are very, like, in tune with their other employees.

[00:30:00] And so if other employees are feeling bad, like, it's very easy to project your frustrations and shame and unhappiness with whatever beyond your little circle.

[00:30:10] And there's a reason that workplace drama is so popular and things like that.

[00:30:16] Because, like, you're all thinking about it all the time.

[00:30:19] And so it really comes back to, okay, I know exactly what happened.

[00:30:24] I know what I'm feeling.

[00:30:25] And how do we take that not beyond this next circle?

[00:30:29] Because that's going to, like you said, it's really going to save you a huge layer of stress and disappointment and sadness and shame if you don't really worry about what everybody else is feeling about this same situation.

[00:30:43] Yeah.

[00:30:45] I recently read, and I forget where I saw it, and I'm not going to get the quote exactly right, but I want to bring it up because I think it's an interesting thing to think about.

[00:30:51] And the idea was that when somebody is feeling motivated by shame specifically, it shifts their goal from playing to win to playing not to lose.

[00:31:04] And the way that I think about that, and I thought when I read it, I was like, that really makes sense to me, but why?

[00:31:14] And I think the reason, what I piece together for myself is that when you're feeling a sense of shame, it's threatening, right?

[00:31:23] Because shame is implying that somebody else is judging you.

[00:31:26] And we are social creatures, right?

[00:31:30] We rely on each other for survival at a really basic level.

[00:31:35] And so if we are feeling shame, that's a threat to the safety that we need through relationship with other people.

[00:31:44] And so what do you do under threat?

[00:31:47] How do you behave under threat is very different than how you behave from a sense of safety.

[00:31:51] And it makes you defensive, right?

[00:31:53] So instead of being willing to take risks to go for the win, and we know that in bike racing, if you want to race for the win, you have to risk losing.

[00:32:03] Or you get defensive and you race not to lose.

[00:32:07] And that's such a different dynamic.

[00:32:10] And even if one individual on a team has that mindset, it can affect the mindset and the dynamic of other people on the team.

[00:32:16] I would say that's the key for me is that everybody you interact with at work, if we're all playing the game the same way, the game is going to go really well.

[00:32:27] Yes. Yeah.

[00:32:28] Right?

[00:32:29] And so if everybody has sort of realistic expectations, they understand that we're going to swing and swing hard rather than sort of batten down the hatches and do everything we can not to fail.

[00:32:43] One is a lot more fun to play.

[00:32:51] And it's really all about, like I would say morale is easily the biggest thing that is sort of intangible and ebbs and flows so much.

[00:33:01] But you know that like when the morale is good with you, whether it's you or your surrounding group or whoever you're working with, it could be the entire company, the morale could be good.

[00:33:12] But it could be just this small group of three people.

[00:33:16] And if the morale is good and you're playing all you're all playing the same game the same way, you're going to have a great time.

[00:33:22] Yeah.

[00:33:23] And I think most of that actually comes back to make sure you talk about the game.

[00:33:29] Like for people you work with regularly, you need to all sort of say, this is what I'm really worried about.

[00:33:35] This is what I'm really excited about.

[00:33:37] This is what I think we can do together.

[00:33:39] And if everybody has that conversation early and often continuing to happen, like the morale will be good.

[00:33:46] And that's what makes the workplace feel less like work.

[00:33:50] It's always a job.

[00:33:51] And I'll be the first one to say that all jobs are jobs.

[00:33:54] And the reason they pay you is because you're doing something that not necessarily everybody wants to do.

[00:34:00] But if you sort of all make it into a place where we're in this to play this game and we're all going to play it this way, you're going to feel great at work.

[00:34:09] And it happens because of communication and talking about the joke.

[00:34:16] We always call it sausage making.

[00:34:18] But like you don't want to see how the sausage is made, but you have to talk about it.

[00:34:22] And so it's this is this is the sausage making talk that you have with a few people so that you're all on you're all on the same page and you're all doing the same thing and you're all sort of rowing in the same direction.

[00:34:34] And it makes a huge difference.

[00:34:36] So I'm just picturing people stepping away from this and being like, OK, we need to sit down and have the sausage making conversation and just saying it out of context.

[00:34:45] I hope they do.

[00:34:47] I would say that's my biggest takeaway as a in the last few years is knowing when to have those conversations, knowing how beneficial they are and also who not have those conversations with because some people don't want to know about it.

[00:35:02] But think about who you interact with on a regular basis.

[00:35:05] Think about what you are doing together and like what you can and can't do.

[00:35:12] And it's one of those ones where I will never say makes a meeting exciting, but it makes it a lot easier to roll into a meeting with this group where you all know that you're playing the same game.

[00:35:22] You're all excited about the same things.

[00:35:24] You're all worried about the same things.

[00:35:25] And then there's not this sort of shield or umbrella that people have up that will detract from whatever you guys have to do.

[00:35:35] And sausage making, it's a real thing.

[00:35:40] Well, and honestly, this is an art, right?

[00:35:43] Because having the sausage making conversation, which I'm totally using this for now on, is not easy.

[00:35:50] And it takes a lot of skill, right?

[00:35:52] To be able to bring it up, engage with a conversation like that.

[00:35:57] What have you learned about having the sausage making conversation effectively?

[00:36:01] Really is, if there's stuff that you feel uncomfortable about bringing up, that's probably something you should actually talk about.

[00:36:09] It's a great one where it's like, would you volunteer this information if someone said or if you're with a couple of people and they said, does anybody have anything they want to say?

[00:36:17] And you're like, well, this is really important for everyone to know, but I don't feel comfortable saying this.

[00:36:22] I think that's there's two things we can approach this two different ways.

[00:36:26] I think communication is key where you are, you and me and everybody needs to focus on communicating more frequently and more truthfully, kind of.

[00:36:39] Because what that does is that gives the permission that you're allowed to say these things.

[00:36:43] And the only for, I'm sure some of these, some people are rolling their eyes that like that will never happen in my workplace.

[00:36:50] But what you can do is you can start sort of pushing the boundary a little bit and say, you know, start with one that's a little easier.

[00:36:58] Like I'm kind of concerned or one of my concerns is that we might not be able to do X with Y.

[00:37:04] And nobody said that out loud yet.

[00:37:06] How do you guys feel about it?

[00:37:07] Right.

[00:37:07] And so it's I think it's always about teeing up the question and then asking what everybody else thinks about it.

[00:37:14] Because if you're thinking about it, you know what you think, or if you're bringing it up, you know what you think.

[00:37:20] But it's much more empowering to have everybody sort of raise their hand and say, I think that I'm not worried about that or that's something that is going to be different.

[00:37:29] You know, whatever that whatever the solution is.

[00:37:31] But if you include everybody else in the solutioning from every single role, or I mean, anybody that's going to touch this project, it brings the group together and makes that next conversation even less difficult.

[00:37:46] And so it's never easy, but it goes from being like, there's no way we can talk about this to we talked about 75% of it at the last one.

[00:37:55] And maybe the next time someone else will bring up a piece that you want to talk about, but then they're bringing it to the table.

[00:38:02] And then it's much more of a team dynamic, like we're all in this together.

[00:38:06] We all have to figure out the right way to do it.

[00:38:08] So how how can we empower others?

[00:38:11] And the best way to empower others is by sort of putting yourself one step beyond where you would feel comfortable and bringing everybody along with you.

[00:38:19] So you've asked the question, see if anybody has anything.

[00:38:22] And honestly, it might not work for the first five times or 10 times or something.

[00:38:28] And you just continue to do it.

[00:38:30] And everybody will respect and like, be envious that you're able to sort of bring this group along with you.

[00:38:37] They might not ever say it, but it does happen.

[00:38:40] And like, everybody knows that feeling where someone says something that you wish you could talk about.

[00:38:45] It's a good feeling.

[00:38:46] You're like, oh, thank goodness they said that.

[00:38:48] So it's always positively like it's really positively.

[00:38:54] I don't know.

[00:38:55] It's it's such a strange feeling, but it's a positive momentum piece for you and the team.

[00:39:01] And it's a knee jerk thing where better you get at it, the easier it's going to get.

[00:39:06] And the more people are going to be on board with it.

[00:39:07] So, yeah, involve others.

[00:39:11] Yeah.

[00:39:11] Just by posing it as a question, you immediately engage the whole team in alignment on asking the question.

[00:39:17] So right off the bat, you're creating this environment or this dynamic where, OK, we're all thinking along the same lines, which is that step toward all of us playing the same game, playing in the same way, in the same direction.

[00:39:32] Oh, this to me seems like the kind of thing where psychological safety plays such a huge role.

[00:39:38] And it's that the discomfort with it is it doesn't feel comfortable to bring this up because I'm not sure how other people are going to react to this.

[00:39:46] And I don't know, you know, are they going to think less of me?

[00:39:49] Are they going to be annoyed with me for bringing it up?

[00:39:50] And how have you seen either leaders or teams kind of address that discomfort or cultivate that kind of psychological safety that that helps people feel comfortable having those conversations?

[00:40:05] Yeah.

[00:40:06] Psychological safety, I think, is very dependent upon the company you're at or the where you work.

[00:40:14] And it trickles top down.

[00:40:17] Right.

[00:40:17] So we all know what that looks like and we all know that some leaders and some however you want to think about it from the top of the company, there's going to be things that are very OK and very not OK.

[00:40:28] And so the way to think about cultural permission and yourself is what's my sphere?

[00:40:35] And so maybe it's only one other coworker.

[00:40:37] Maybe it's one coworker that you can sort of bridge this gap and you take the half a step towards them and they take half a step towards you.

[00:40:44] And then you're both mutually understanding about what is going on in that person's life and what's going on in your life.

[00:40:51] I always have great luck with whatever team I work on.

[00:40:54] Right.

[00:40:54] I think it's one that you start right from the beginning.

[00:40:57] And even if you've been with this team for a long period of time, you can be a new version of you that shows up that next day and says, what do you guys all think about this?

[00:41:05] But I think it's one where focus, especially and it's hard.

[00:41:10] This is very company by company.

[00:41:12] Focus, especially on where you spend the majority of your time and who you spend the majority of your time with and start with this.

[00:41:19] Like if you can make 90 percent of your time at work really enjoyable, why would you not do that?

[00:41:23] Or 50 percent of your time or 25 percent of your time and pick these like little rings that hopefully will expand.

[00:41:30] Right.

[00:41:31] Ideally, other people are going to start adopting this strategy and bringing it further and further.

[00:41:36] And the good and bad news is you will never be able to change your leadership.

[00:41:41] They are who they are.

[00:41:42] They've got to where they are by doing what they do.

[00:41:45] They will think about new options and stuff like that.

[00:41:47] But there's a really good quote.

[00:41:49] There's a really good quote that's the older you get, the more you stay the same or something like that.

[00:41:56] And yeah, you're just not going to even we are not going to change that much from who we are like right now and in 10 years.

[00:42:04] So you just get to pick this small little circle of influence that you have and create a better place for you at work.

[00:42:11] I think that's what you have to remind yourself is this uncomfortableness is going to make me enjoy and have a more comfortable place to work.

[00:42:20] And if that's all you have to do to make that happen, once you do it, you'll be like, I can't believe that's all it took to make to make my Tuesday afternoons better or something like that.

[00:42:32] Yeah.

[00:42:33] And you're making it better for everyone around you, too.

[00:42:35] Mm hmm.

[00:42:36] When you because this is this is a dynamic that exists in relationship with other people.

[00:42:41] And so when you invite somebody into that safer version of a hard conversation, you are then kind of teaching each other that this can be a safe thing to do.

[00:42:54] It can be safe to have the sausage making conversation.

[00:42:57] And then, you know, who knows what ripple effect that might have.

[00:43:00] Right.

[00:43:00] Like they might then go on do for the next employee.

[00:43:02] And like you said, it that that circle of influence might expand, hopefully.

[00:43:06] And even if it doesn't, you know, like break through to the C-suite, it it doesn't mean that it isn't going to have a serious impact for you and for a lot of other people.

[00:43:17] Mm hmm.

[00:43:18] And it's all I mean, I think employees have to remember that you're all on the same team and what you can do that benefits you and others.

[00:43:30] They will definitely also do other things that benefit you and others.

[00:43:33] Mm hmm.

[00:43:34] So every time if it makes it 10 percent harder for you, but five percent easier for five other people, like I think the math works out in the favor that like everybody is going to be happier and the people you interact with are going to be happier and it's going to be easier.

[00:43:49] And so I think thinking about your sphere of influence and that's kind of what we're throwing a little further back to you show up as.

[00:43:57] And if you show up with a good attitude and willing to take the hard half a step to make everybody's lives a little bit better, man, that's what makes you employee that people remember.

[00:44:08] That's the one where after, you know, you move on or they move on, they check in with you.

[00:44:14] Hey, how's it going?

[00:44:15] Because it matters because you had such a positive impact on their lives.

[00:44:19] And I think that really just comes back to doing things that make you slightly uncomfortable or communicating things that makes you slightly uncomfortable to feel like you guys have this deeper connection beyond a co-worker to co-worker or colleague to colleague.

[00:44:34] And people respect that and will respect that forever.

[00:44:36] I'm sure you've worked with people and I've worked with people that I still talk to to this day because the people that the way you present.

[00:44:48] That's a spoiler.

[00:44:51] But no, it matters and it matters how you show up and it matters what you bring to the table and people remember that.

[00:44:58] And so it's hard to remember that for yourself when you're getting up for another Tuesday and going to another meeting or whatever you're doing that day.

[00:45:07] People remember how you show up.

[00:45:09] Yeah.

[00:45:10] And that's that's what really matters.

[00:45:12] I'm going to bring this back to bike racing again.

[00:45:16] One of the things I remember as I was getting started and I was in that kind of rookie phase where I was paying attention to too many things, paying attention to all of the things.

[00:45:24] And one of the things I remember worrying about so much was I didn't want to be unsafe.

[00:45:29] Like I didn't want to put anyone around me at risk.

[00:45:31] I didn't want to be the squirrely wheel or cause a crash or, you know, any of those things.

[00:45:36] And of course, worrying about that is not that helpful.

[00:45:42] And what I finally figured out is by taking care of myself, I kept everyone around me safe.

[00:45:49] So instead of worrying about everyone around me, if I made sure that I was eating enough so that I could think clearly on the bike, make good decisions.

[00:45:57] And I was putting my wheel in a place that was safe for me to be.

[00:46:01] Then I was by definition not putting anybody around me at risk.

[00:46:06] And so I was able to then stop thinking, you know, that massive cognitive load of trying to be aware of every single bike racer in the peloton and instead focus on where am I positioning myself in relation to the people immediately around me?

[00:46:20] And am I doing that in a way that is safe for me?

[00:46:22] Because if it's safe for me, then it's going to be safe for them, too.

[00:46:24] And what you're saying right now is tying back to, you know, getting good sleep and doing covering the fundamentals, you know, so that you put yourself in a position to show up well.

[00:46:38] And in that sense, it's like I think when we start to feel disempowered because I'm just one person, what could I possibly do, you know, in this huge company or on this sports team or in the world?

[00:46:53] Like, what can I possibly do as this one person?

[00:46:55] Well, it can be as simple as taking care of yourself will, by definition, help you show up better for people in your life.

[00:47:06] And even if you're showing up better, like you said, for one other person at work, that changes not just you, but the dynamic between you, which ultimately changes them.

[00:47:14] It changes their experience.

[00:47:16] It changes the experience of your collaboration.

[00:47:20] And we shouldn't undervalue that.

[00:47:22] Yes.

[00:47:23] It's honestly the most important thing that happens.

[00:47:25] Like, I do think it matters on your deliverables and it matters what you're like, which KPIs you're moving and it matters all those things.

[00:47:34] But really, at the end of the day, it matters who you are and who you interact with and what you guys do together in a positive way.

[00:47:44] And that's what you remember, right?

[00:47:47] And that's the connection that you have.

[00:47:49] And that's the good example that you're leading by.

[00:47:51] And that's the ones that people remember.

[00:47:53] And jobs are just jobs.

[00:47:55] But who you are at your job is what actually really matters.

[00:47:59] Yeah.

[00:48:00] So I'm imagining that there might be somebody listening who says, yeah, I get what you're saying.

[00:48:07] And from a value standpoint and from a personal standpoint, this all resonates.

[00:48:12] But, you know, in my job, all my boss cares about are the deliverables and the KPIs.

[00:48:19] And there are people in my job who are able to be more productive, hit better benchmarks or metrics because they are willing to sacrifice on values or ethics, right?

[00:48:32] They're willing to make those compromises.

[00:48:35] What have you seen in terms of the connection between people living those kinds of values at work and the actual business outcomes?

[00:48:43] Is there a connection there that we can kind of point to?

[00:48:46] Yeah.

[00:48:47] Yeah.

[00:48:47] So this is for those people listening that were just like, that's impossible.

[00:48:54] I'm going to challenge you.

[00:48:55] This is another high level takeaway.

[00:48:58] But think about your manager and how they think about you and every single person you interact with at work.

[00:49:05] You should be putting yourselves in their shoes when you are talking to them.

[00:49:10] So you're going to bring the version of yourself that they are looking for.

[00:49:15] And so if you have a boss that only cares about KPIs and only cares about certain deliverables or the next project, all you do is you reorient yourself to be that piece forward.

[00:49:29] So if they only care about this next project and it's overdue and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:49:33] Really, you're going to bring that piece and what you're doing to make that as good as it can possibly be.

[00:49:41] And that's what they're looking for.

[00:49:43] So effectively, what you're doing is you're pre answering what they care about before they can even ask.

[00:49:49] And if you frame along with your values, the good news here is that you don't actually have to change who you are.

[00:49:55] You're sort of bringing if you're a cube, you're bringing one side of the cube that is very specific to what that person cares about.

[00:50:03] And I think that's the thing that it took me longer to figure out than it should have.

[00:50:08] Like total transparency.

[00:50:11] I didn't realize that every manager is different and every, you know, every interaction you have with customers or C-suite or, you know, the person checking out at the grocery store.

[00:50:22] Like they all are looking for something very specific from you.

[00:50:26] And what you can do is spend the one minute or five minutes or one hour beforehand so that the person that they talk to is exactly the person they're looking for.

[00:50:38] Right.

[00:50:38] And so if it's KPI focused or if it's something that you're not as good at, what you do is you focus more time on that so that what you're talking about with that person makes it feel like you are exactly the person they're looking for.

[00:50:52] You're doing everything you possibly can at your job to make that successful.

[00:50:56] And you're not sort of weighing them down with other things that maybe aren't quite as critical to what they're thinking about.

[00:51:03] But there's a lot of things on your plate.

[00:51:05] And I think being a good person on the other side of all of those will allow you to feel comfortable by only being sort of this one trick pony to this person you're talking to.

[00:51:17] Hmm.

[00:51:18] And it goes back to the there's 50 percent of the things that you can't actually spend your time worrying about.

[00:51:23] And if your boss only worries about one thing, guess what?

[00:51:26] You're going to spend most of your time worrying about that one thing.

[00:51:28] And so you're going to have to have some things drop off because your boss cares about something very specific.

[00:51:33] You now care about something very specific.

[00:51:36] And the easiest way to make you be successful, that is not do things that is going to take away from that.

[00:51:42] And so sometimes that means less things that week or that month or that year.

[00:51:45] But you want to present the right version of yourself and think about the conversation that your boss is going to have with you or your colleague is going to have with you.

[00:51:54] What are they going to ask for?

[00:51:56] What are they going to want to know?

[00:51:58] And you can already have all that ready to go.

[00:52:00] And even if you're doing the same work and you don't present well or you're not prepared, like that's the difference between being a successful employee and a non-successful employee is how you present that information.

[00:52:13] What's the difference between that strategy and people pleasing?

[00:52:17] I would say people pleasing is easier to do.

[00:52:22] So people pleasing, you can agree, you can say yes.

[00:52:25] People pleasing is actually not, I mean, it's beneficial superficially, but people pleasing only works for some amount of time.

[00:52:35] And so depending on what you have on your plate, people pleasing will get you, you know, a shorter amount of time.

[00:52:43] But if you sort of prepare and understand what is being asked of you by a specific person or the company or whatever, and you orient yourself that way, then it's not about what you're saying yes to.

[00:52:57] And I can do that and we'll make that happen.

[00:52:59] And it's more about, hey, I can do this, this and this, but not this.

[00:53:05] Does that make sense to you?

[00:53:06] Like, this is the reason I picked that one not to do.

[00:53:09] That's what I'm going to go with unless you think otherwise.

[00:53:10] Like, that's the conversation that your boss feels like, you know, and you're bringing the best version of yourself and you're thinking about things the same way they are thinking about them, which is the critical piece to sort of hopefully unlocking that deeper connection with your boss over and over and over.

[00:53:28] Just like the sausage making as they sort of respect as they sort of respect that you're thinking about things the same way as they are.

[00:53:35] They're going to open up because that trust is going to get built and you're going to feel like, I mean, deep connections with your boss or I know some people don't want them.

[00:53:44] Some people want them.

[00:53:45] But you can really think about the way your boss is thinking about you and bring that version to every time you meet with them.

[00:53:53] Your life is going to be easier.

[00:53:55] You're going to be less stressed about all the things you're going to have to do.

[00:53:58] And you're going to have this sort of at least understanding of what you should and should not be doing with your time.

[00:54:04] Yeah, this makes sense to me.

[00:54:06] And I think it's not about changing who you are to suit the person in front of you or make them comfortable.

[00:54:13] It's about recognizing that we all in our lives have different roles, right?

[00:54:20] And each of those roles, it's like we kind of step into the archetype of parent or we step into the archetype of partner or we step into the archetype of employee or leader or teammate.

[00:54:29] And when we are in that role, there are clear expectations of what we're meant to do, right?

[00:54:39] So when I show up to a bike race with my teammates, like I am in the role of teammate.

[00:54:44] That doesn't mean that I'm a fundamentally different person in the bike race than I am off the bike.

[00:54:50] It's just that I am stepping into this role, which is sort of like, okay, for the next 90 minutes in this crit, I'm going to embody this archetype,

[00:54:58] which is a facet of who I am, but it's not all of who I am.

[00:55:01] But this is, I'm in this moment, I'm expressing this facet of who I am and being mindful of what, like you were saying, like in my role as a teammate,

[00:55:14] it's not my job to be a people pleaser of my teammates, but part of my job as a teammate is to be able to put myself in my teammates' shoes

[00:55:22] and understand what's going on with them so that I know what they need from me and I can bring that to the table to help the team succeed.

[00:55:30] And I'm just, I'm imagining that people might be listening and thinking like, oh, but that means I should give up who I am and just, you know,

[00:55:37] become whoever my boss needs me to be or become whoever my partner needs me to be.

[00:55:42] But I think what you're saying is different than that.

[00:55:44] It's be you, be your whole self.

[00:55:48] But at any given moment during the day, we are just by default stepping into and kind of playing these different roles,

[00:55:57] not performatively, but just fulfilling the expectation or the responsibility that comes with that role.

[00:56:03] Yeah. And I think it's, it's almost for me personally, it's easier to think of it like a challenge.

[00:56:10] Like I can relish in the challenge of how do I present as the same version of me?

[00:56:15] Like I'm not a, let's see, I clean the kitchen.

[00:56:18] Let's make it really simple.

[00:56:20] Am I, I don't clean the house all the time.

[00:56:23] I can clean the kitchen.

[00:56:25] I'm pretty good at cleaning the kitchen.

[00:56:26] I get enjoyment out of cleaning the kitchen.

[00:56:28] I like cooking.

[00:56:30] I like having everything prep.

[00:56:31] So that version of me, the cleaning kitchen version of me, I like, but it's not who I present the whole rest of the time out in the world, you know?

[00:56:41] But it's just something that I have to do.

[00:56:44] And it's something that I can do a good job at.

[00:56:46] And it's something that I can sort of say, okay, right now, this is what I'm doing.

[00:56:51] This is what I'm going to enjoy out of it.

[00:56:53] This is why I'm excited to get to the other side.

[00:56:55] And when I make dinner in two hours, it's going to be amazing.

[00:56:57] And so it's like, it really is that simple.

[00:57:01] You're going to do something specific.

[00:57:03] It's going to be a benefit to other people.

[00:57:05] And how do you think about what the challenge is?

[00:57:09] How to still be the same version of yourself and what to show off, right?

[00:57:14] It's almost like a, how do I maximize the version of myself?