Joy, Community, and Investing in Connection: Season 1 Finale

[00:00:04] Welcome to the final episode of our first season. Thank you for supporting the show this year. We've learned and grown a ton and can't wait to bring you a new season in 2025. As with our last episode, this is a compilation of thought-provoking ideas from our guests. The theme that emerged most consistently across all of our conversations with top athletes and experts? The importance of connection. In a sport like cycling, you typically see the winners stand alone at the top of the podium. But any athlete will tell you that getting to the top of the podium is a great opportunity to bring you a new season.

[00:00:34] And getting to that top step requires the efforts of countless people along the way. Chasing big goals and results is a fulfilling endeavor. But I find it fascinating that across so many different world-class performers and experts, nearly all pointed to connection. Not only as a crucial component of their professional success, but as the most fulfilling outcome of their journeys, overshadowing even their biggest results. As we approach the end of the calendar year, it's a time when a lot of people look ahead to new

[00:01:04] goals and reflect on the past year. What were the moments that stood out to you? What changed you? I'd wager most of those answers involve connection of some kind, being in relationship or community. As you set goals or look ahead to what you hope for the coming year, consider the hard-earned wisdom of the incredible folks from whom you're about to hear. Imagine how you can incorporate more connection. Get intentional about how you can contribute to and find joy in your relationships and your communities. As you'll hear, even the toughest

[00:01:34] athletes don't go it alone. In fact, both athletes and researchers agree, the thing that will give you the best chance of success is also what will bring meaning and joy that can outlast and outshine even the biggest achievements. You're listening to the Be a Good Wheel podcast, the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel by digging into scientific research and personal stories about human potential and performance. I'm your host, Amber Pierce.

[00:02:01] Stephen Hyde, three-time Psycho Cross National Champion and two-time Pan American Champion, points to trust as essential to success. Specifically, because success isn't possible without trusting relationships.

[00:02:14] What I learned from bike racing over the years is that success doesn't come in a vacuum of trust. And I think thinking about all the directors and people that I've had to answer to or listen to over the years, often my least successful times came when I didn't have trust in those people.

[00:02:39] And so I didn't have trust in those people because I didn't feel seen by those people. I didn't feel like they saw me as an individual who had these certain capabilities. They saw me as like, hey, you've won some bike races, go win this one. And that just never sat very well with me.

[00:02:56] And that's where good leadership comes from, I think, in a team, right? And where you see really good team bonding. You just see teams come and you're like, how do these people just slay it every time they show up?

[00:03:07] You know, and they're like, hey, yeah, I find you see them at the dinner table together, you know, and you're like, they're just this unbelievable, this like unbeatable force, right?

[00:03:15] And that it's true, because they have real connections, you know, and you see other teams floating around, not talking to each other on their phones, different little squads of people floating around.

[00:03:25] Yeah, that takes that takes leadership to function.

[00:03:28] Big time. I'm recalling a moment where director that we were working with who had cultivated that kind of chemistry said, all right, you know, make sure that you guys go sign in as a team.

[00:03:36] And he said, there's nothing more intimidating than seeing an entire team rock up to sign in, laughing, relaxed and having the best time together.

[00:03:44] And that really stuck with me, because it's so true. Like you kind of think about intimidation as being the hard stare. No, it's the people that are super relaxed and having a great time that are the scariest.

[00:03:58] Absolutely. Because you're like, what do they know that I don't? I'm terrified of what's about to happen. You guys are like, I mean, when you do have that trust, I mean, it goes, it goes such a long way.

[00:04:14] Right. And I think what I found to, you know, I found my niche in cyclocross, right? And it's a very individualistic sport. Very.

[00:04:21] But I've also been on teams. I've always been on teams for cyclocross. And so you kind of run this like, interesting dynamic, especially when you're like racing each other, your competitors, as well as teammates, but primarily competitors.

[00:04:33] And then there's the different world where your teammates first, the competitors second.

[00:04:36] Okay, we both just get paid to be here and to win races. One of us has to win this race. You know, that's the thing. It's like, we're here and one of us has to win this race.

[00:04:44] So we can be miserable all the time and just be fearing each other. Or we can use each other as a way to calm ourselves and to have solidarity, right?

[00:04:59] And I have always pushed myself, even when I didn't want to, to be more open and more giving with what I do now with my insights or I'll tell somebody my tactics right away. Like, this is what I'm going to do.

[00:05:13] Yeah.

[00:05:15] And it's never failed me because it's going to push me to be smarter. It's going to push me to go deeper when I need to. And it's going to push me to say like, okay, if I'm right now good as I can get, if I help this person who's second to me, come up to my level and even challenge my level, well, then that's the push that I need.

[00:05:39] Like, that's fantastic. That's a tool for me to use. And I think adopting that mindset early on was just super helpful because when I came to the sport, my immediate reaction was, go find the better riders and then be their best friend. Figure it out.

[00:05:58] Yeah.

[00:05:59] And then you move through that and then you're like, okay, cool. You know, we have this really great relationship and I have this other person that's pushing me. And once you make those relationships, they always push you, whether it's goals or not.

[00:06:09] They're always going to push you. They have different mindsets. They have different ways of going about things. Always been helpful to me to have a different point of view.

[00:06:17] I'm really lucky to count so many more people as friends than not in the sport.

[00:06:24] I had a career where I won and lost bike races, but almost none of that matters to me in the slightest. It's really in all the relationships that I built.

[00:06:34] And for anybody who's in their career right now, you know, the best advice I could possibly give them is like, hey, just build relationships because these are your friends.

[00:06:43] These are the people whom helped you do this and they will more than likely help you way beyond bike racing and you probably help them when you're down.

[00:06:52] And eventually, like you might cheers to reminisce on your bike racing life or your athletic life and be like, hey, I'm running that race. That's really cool.

[00:07:00] Or that win, whatever. But the thing you're more going to talk about in the experience that you had together about it are the wins.

[00:07:06] You know, those are just such fleeting, small parts of it.

[00:07:09] Even for someone who dedicated over a decade to earning results at the top of his sport, Hyde points to the relationships he forged as being far more meaningful than the results he did achieve.

[00:07:20] Brad Huff, eight-time national champion, two-time Pan American champion and world championship medalist,

[00:07:26] shared his perspective on this balance between the focus on competing for results and the bigger picture of connection and purpose.

[00:07:38] Competition is truly from the word competere, which is to strive with, not against, not ahead of, not to push aside, but to work with, to find a common,

[00:07:53] I don't want to say bold because everybody wants to win, but to strive with and to put aside that to the victor go the spoils mentality where that narrative that's been pushed upon us that,

[00:08:04] no, no, no, no, it's about you, it's about your wins, you have to take, you have to, you have to be selfish.

[00:08:10] Well, the other adage is rising tide lifts all boats, which is compartir, to work together, to rise all boats, to help everyone rise above.

[00:08:20] Yes, there will be a victor, but the process will be so much more profitable for everyone,

[00:08:27] which is why I think in our sport, people seek community much more than they seek competition because they want to be engaged.

[00:08:36] They want to feel like they're a part of something greater than themselves because society only exalts that one victor.

[00:08:47] That's fleeting.

[00:08:47] You know, I would rather be a part of a greater movement, which is why I always, I didn't want to be the leader.

[00:08:54] I wanted to be the worker.

[00:08:55] I wanted to help others in it.

[00:08:56] And so in this new view, this new era of actually seeing a whole athlete, even though an athlete is a professional,

[00:09:05] they're paid to perform, they're paid to win because of social media, because of the openness about mental health.

[00:09:13] And I feel like the pandemic is really what created the shift of seeing the whole human

[00:09:17] movement because even CEOs now had to show their true side because they're on Zoom calls.

[00:09:24] The kid is walking through, they're trying to, trying to stand her through, their dog's coming in and jumping.

[00:09:30] It's like, no, you're seeing the true element.

[00:09:32] Like we can no longer posture and say, I am perfect.

[00:09:37] It's like, no, no, we're all, we're all in this together.

[00:09:39] We're all trying to figure it out.

[00:09:40] Um, and I really hope that through this new era of openness and willingness and true leaders showing up, leaders that yes, are there to reach that goal of success, but not at all costs.

[00:09:57] Not at the sacrifice of the individual along the way.

[00:10:02] I hope that new leaders are able to rise above in that and show this new, new group of kids that are getting this for it's for aspirational athletes that are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, a better way.

[00:10:16] Not Strava QOM, Strava KOMs.

[00:10:19] That's not why we go out the door.

[00:10:22] It's a better connection.

[00:10:24] Why did we get on the bike in the first place?

[00:10:27] Why did we step into sport in the first place?

[00:10:30] Does it brought us and want to joy because we were there out for it.

[00:10:35] We were having fun playing and learning.

[00:10:38] We are developing and adapting with each other.

[00:10:42] But then competition got pushed upon us.

[00:10:45] Oh, well, I could do this and I could actually go where?

[00:10:48] And so we lose that grasp of joy that we once held because our joy is only measured by the height that we reach.

[00:11:02] There are more athletes performing at a higher level today than there used to be because I think more individuals are respecting other competitors.

[00:11:13] Their understanding.

[00:11:14] Game.

[00:11:15] Game, truly recognized game.

[00:11:17] You know, it's not just the victor.

[00:11:19] It's the process that we're all working towards to get there.

[00:11:23] And that's why at the Olympics, the greatest of all time bowed in her position in second place to the gold medal winner.

[00:11:34] I mean, yes.

[00:11:36] Yes.

[00:11:36] That's more touching than anything.

[00:11:38] That is the greatest of all time is looking to someone who beat her.

[00:11:43] Yeah.

[00:11:43] And she's bowing to them like, you are the great.

[00:11:45] Thank you.

[00:11:47] Yeah.

[00:11:48] That's true humility.

[00:11:49] That's true leadership.

[00:11:50] And I think the era of athletes that will come out of, I'll say, post-pandemic, the era of leaders that will come out post-pandemic will be some of the greatest that we've ever seen.

[00:12:03] Because everyone took that mentality into the pandemic.

[00:12:09] And did you see how many people burned out from life?

[00:12:14] Yes.

[00:12:15] And it's only those that actually, and I burned out.

[00:12:18] I cracked.

[00:12:19] I burned out.

[00:12:20] I crumbled.

[00:12:21] You know, and I'm doing my best to rise out of those ashes, you know, that I realized I was in.

[00:12:28] I burned myself down.

[00:12:30] And more individuals, those that are willing, those that are opening their mind to the true reason why we're out there, to find joy, to find connection.

[00:12:39] They will help us all rise above.

[00:12:41] Brad points out the importance of connection and joy, and how these directly relate to the true meaning of competition.

[00:12:47] Olympian Rachel Hederman is another athlete who derived meaning from riding in support of her teammates.

[00:12:52] In particular, her British compatriot, Nicole Cook.

[00:13:00] I got the satisfaction from knowing that I was able to support her, you know, and that I played a part in some of the results that she got.

[00:13:12] For me, that was what I could achieve.

[00:13:14] You know, I wasn't delusional as though it was his.

[00:13:18] To think that, you know, I was going to go and win the Olympics or I was going to go and win the World Championships.

[00:13:24] But I could be a part of somebody else doing that.

[00:13:29] Yeah.

[00:13:30] So, unfortunately, by the time that she did actually win both of those was round about the time that I was getting ready to retire and was not there.

[00:13:39] But actually, I do remember Nicole calling me from the airport on her way back from the Olympics and saying, you were a part of this.

[00:13:48] Even though I hadn't been riding the race, it was like that, you know, and it meant a huge amount to me.

[00:13:53] You know, it was a, oh my gosh, a good number of years ago.

[00:13:57] But I, you know, I still remember it and realizing the, you know, the appreciation that she had for the help that I'd given her through my career, you know, before that point.

[00:14:07] Aisha McGowan, the first African-American woman to race professionally on the World Tour, shared a story about how even virtual connection helped her prepare for the World Tour during the pandemic.

[00:14:22] I got this opportunity to be the stage here for the Live Racing team.

[00:14:28] And I'm like, well, I guess I got to get into shape.

[00:14:31] And we, during the pandemic, had been doing these like weekly calls of just a bunch of women of color.

[00:14:37] And we were just having these Zoom calls because everyone was just having Zoom calls.

[00:14:42] We had a virtual mod, I guess.

[00:14:44] And I continued through 2021.

[00:14:47] And so we'd be on these Zoom calls and I would literally be training.

[00:14:50] Like sometimes I'm like jumping around doing strength training in my exercise.

[00:14:54] Sometimes I'm on the trainer on, like riding my bike.

[00:14:57] But like it was always a really, I don't know.

[00:15:01] It just felt like I had training buddies and like people rooting for me.

[00:15:06] And I think I went from very mediocre fitness to very high fitness in a very short time.

[00:15:11] And I had a really good like end of season that year.

[00:15:14] And I definitely think it was thanks.

[00:15:17] It was just a Zoom call.

[00:15:19] Dr. Omid Fautui, PhD and researcher in social psychology, shared that psychological research shows connection plays a key role in resilience.

[00:15:28] Contrary to popular views of grit as toughing things out on your own, Dr. Fautui suggests that true resilience lies in cultivating resilient networks and reaching out for support.

[00:15:42] It was this beautiful observation that those who have this persistence and commitment to long-term goals tend to have better outcomes.

[00:15:50] But it just caught a wave of popularity that was so, so fast and so rapid that we have again defaulted to an overly simplistic view.

[00:16:01] And unfortunately, we've painted this image of grittiness as being the foundation of being able to have better outcomes.

[00:16:11] Which I want to challenge because if you unpack this simplistic notion of grit, you actually find a few components.

[00:16:19] So I think when people talk about grit, they say, you know, pull yourself by the bootstraps.

[00:16:24] Or when you have nothing left to give, just dig a little bit deeper.

[00:16:29] And that's what grit is.

[00:16:30] But, you know, from a physics perspective, that's not possible.

[00:16:34] When you have nothing left in a tank, you can't just make it appear out of nowhere.

[00:16:38] And so the unfortunate consequence of this sort of grit mania phenomenon that I term is that when things get hard, individuals believe that they just need to be a little bit more gritty.

[00:16:50] Which interpret as, I just need to find a little bit more of my internal reserve to push through this challenge by myself.

[00:17:28] And so you're doing more work.

[00:17:57] That leads to less optimal results, which in turn actually harms you.

[00:18:03] So that notion of grit can actually mislead people towards more negative outcomes because it confuses grit with resilience.

[00:18:10] And the way that I try to remind people of what resilience is and how you can foster resilience is not to foster the internal quality of resilience, but to foster resilient networks.

[00:18:21] Because ultimately, that's where the strength comes from.

[00:18:25] When you have nothing left to give, as we go back to that metaphor, then the only way you can find a little bit more is to borrow some from the people around you.

[00:18:33] And so when you invest in that and when you invest in resilient networks, then you too become part of that network of resilience.

[00:18:39] Because sometimes people are going to rely on you when they have nothing left to give.

[00:18:43] And that's really the only way that I think we see resilience be adaptive in today's work.

[00:18:49] What I also want to say is because these terms are often conflated with a lot of different meanings, I'm not trying to suggest that you should just take life easy.

[00:18:59] Right? Because the long-term pursuits that we have are challenging.

[00:19:03] They require that you persist in the face of difficulty, in the face of not getting immediate gratification.

[00:19:09] But those are distinct steps.

[00:19:10] And I think to confuse them by saying the only way to get through things is to grind your teeth and push through by yourself is actually not adaptive.

[00:19:19] It's incredibly rewarding to take on big goals and dreams and work toward them.

[00:19:24] Taking on long-term pursuits is absolutely worthwhile.

[00:19:27] Yet as we know, these pursuits will inevitably come with challenges and difficult times.

[00:19:31] And in those times, we need to seek support from others to help us get through the rough patches and persist toward the goal.

[00:19:38] The other thing we get from reaching out for support is the benefit of different perspectives.

[00:19:42] Professional cyclist Alexi Vermeulen relies on the people in his life to offer feedback and finds meaning in the many relationships he has built through his racing career.

[00:19:54] There are people who I run my ideas by, right?

[00:19:57] If I'm feeling judgmental or I'm feeling like I'm worth something more or I just want to vent, there are people I can go vent about business with.

[00:20:04] And they'll listen and then give constructive feedback, not just agreeing with me.

[00:20:08] That I think is like, you have to have those people.

[00:20:10] Because if I had a conversation recently with somebody who was like, I want to do this.

[00:20:14] And I was like, that's a rash decision.

[00:20:15] And they're like, oh, but my dad and my girlfriend agree.

[00:20:17] I was like, yeah, of course they agree.

[00:20:18] That's their job.

[00:20:20] They're supposed to do that.

[00:20:22] And so I think it's not anything against parents and significant others.

[00:20:26] But those people aren't the best to take really hard decisions to sometimes because they want to support you.

[00:20:31] When you say you think you're worth more, they're going to tell you you are.

[00:20:35] And so yeah.

[00:20:37] And so I think I'll end with that.

[00:20:38] Obviously my parents and brothers and girlfriend have been instrumental in just believing in me.

[00:20:44] And so I think it's all those people that help you along the way.

[00:20:47] And yeah, I guess to bring this full circle, because like I said, I love cycles and they always exist.

[00:20:52] I have an ongoing list in that notebook I talked about.

[00:20:57] I'm just like, I literally write people's names down who have ever done good for me.

[00:21:00] And it's a constant, like, it's so fun to go back to that.

[00:21:03] Because it's just, it's simple, right?

[00:21:05] It's that feeling we all want that is not something, you're not asking anybody for anything specifically.

[00:21:10] You just want them to be there for you, that relationship.

[00:21:14] And even if you can, yeah, if you go away from it for two years, I feel like you can always come back and have this moment that brings everyone together, right?

[00:21:23] Like you and I riding Mount Lemmon.

[00:21:25] I know, I was just going to say.

[00:21:26] You have this moment and all of a sudden you're just like.

[00:21:27] 2013 to now.

[00:21:29] Yeah, it's crazy.

[00:21:30] For sure.

[00:21:31] It's insane though.

[00:21:32] It's awesome.

[00:21:32] Like how often have we talked?

[00:21:35] It's so great.

[00:21:56] I think I would probably go back to kind of the beginning of our podcast.

[00:22:02] I'm like losing my sister, you know, it was so shocking to lose a family member overnight.

[00:22:09] Right.

[00:22:10] And I think from that point on, I always knew that I need to be part of larger community.

[00:22:20] The more people you can have in your life, the better.

[00:22:23] Because we're always going to lose more members of our community, our family.

[00:22:31] And it just makes me very happy having more people that you, not only you come on them, but you also help them, you know, and just be there for them.

[00:22:44] And so it's like, of course, like family is the priority, but I just always wanted a little bit more.

[00:22:53] So even like I got married and it was great to have this partner, but like I also got divorced and now wasn't there.

[00:23:01] But like my community stayed, right?

[00:23:03] So there's all these things in life where you just find these people that you have something common with and you keep them in your life.

[00:23:13] And, you know, sometimes that's on very much regular basis.

[00:23:17] Sometimes that's a bike race once a year and Halloween rodeo cross or everything in between, you know.

[00:23:26] And I think, I think it's, yeah, I think community is super important to me.

[00:23:31] And I have, you know, I have communities that don't ride bikes.

[00:23:36] I have communities that ski.

[00:23:38] I did all kinds of communities and the more people in my life, the better, I think.

[00:23:44] So that's, I love that sentiment because I could see very much where you could have gone the other way after losing your sister.

[00:23:50] You could have had the opposite conclusion.

[00:23:52] Oh, I don't want to connect with more people because I might lose them.

[00:23:55] But instead you chose this path that's almost created resilience in your relationships.

[00:24:00] You cultivate so much mutual love and support.

[00:24:03] Yeah, no, it's, it's always been important to me.

[00:24:06] And I've, you know, I haven't had the easiest life when it comes to some of this, some of these tragic events in my life.

[00:24:13] And it's like, yeah, it's ultimately there will be others to deal with that.

[00:24:17] And if you can offer some perspective or talk to people, just, just having that kind of experience, like gives you comfort to, to ask those questions that others may be hesitant to ask because they're like, I can't imagine.

[00:24:32] I don't know what to ask.

[00:24:33] Like, I would rather not see that person because I don't, you know, I don't know how to acknowledge their grief.

[00:24:39] And that, that's been much easier for me.

[00:24:42] And then, you know, feel like they, they want to talk because you have something in common.

[00:24:47] That's, that's always kind of nice thing because it's pretty easy for all of us to get stuck in our own thoughts, you know, whether it's this or like the racing stuff, right?

[00:24:58] Like, so much about our mental state.

[00:25:02] It's the same person, the fitness might be good, everything might be good, but there is something that's stopping you from that good day, you know?

[00:25:11] Yeah.

[00:25:12] So it's always, always nice to talk to others and be like, oh, you struggle with that too?

[00:25:16] What do you do about it?

[00:25:18] You know, how do you deal with it?

[00:25:20] Oh, that sounds cool.

[00:25:21] Maybe I'll try, you know?

[00:25:22] So I think it's, it's important to, to talk about these kinds of things.

[00:25:26] And for some, you know, it might be only that one other person for others who might be few more people, you know, and it's, it's really individual.

[00:25:35] And, but I think it's, it's crucial for all of us to share our crazy thoughts with somebody else every now and then, because you did, you get a different perspective, you know?

[00:25:44] And one of the examples I can use here is like, I didn't have the best starts, which is very crucial in both math making and cyclocross, because you're always shooting for that same track.

[00:25:55] You want to give yourself chance to be in a good place rather than the middle of the pack or crashes may happen and whatnot.

[00:26:01] And so for the longest time, I was just stuck on this, like, I'm a bad starter.

[00:26:06] I'm a bad starter, you know?

[00:26:08] And like my coach finally was just like, but you're a really good finisher.

[00:26:13] And I was like, you're, you're right.

[00:26:16] So I'll make it through the field and then I finished really well.

[00:26:20] And like, it really changed my perspective of like how to approach it.

[00:26:24] And then like, I didn't stress about it.

[00:26:25] I didn't go to the start with the motion, like probably gonna mess this one up again, but I should know how to move up, you know?

[00:26:33] And then I figured out other ways to kind of like focus on the actual motion of getting a better start, choosing better gear.

[00:26:40] And, you know, I'm like, eventually I, I would say I was excellent, but I got better.

[00:26:47] Not only do we find solace in hearing that we may not be alone when we share our crazy thoughts,

[00:26:52] but we also get the benefit of others' wisdom and the connection that comes from those conversations.

[00:26:57] It goes well beyond athletic performance.

[00:26:59] Connection helps us process grief, our own and others, and can be transformative on a deeply personal level.

[00:27:05] For Leah Davison, two-time Olympian and eight-time national champion, Connection gave her the acceptance she needed to go from being quietly out to living out loud as a gay athlete.

[00:27:18] I literally thought I had to make a choice between becoming an Olympian, you know, making my Olympic dreams come true and being gay.

[00:27:29] That, and, oh God, that, I mean, that is, is devastating in and of itself.

[00:27:38] And it's like you, I had this dream.

[00:27:40] And so you sacrifice everything for it.

[00:27:46] And at the same time, it takes a village.

[00:27:49] So you need team support, you need sponsors, you need mechanics, you need swan ears to give you massages.

[00:27:56] Like, what if none of those people would do that?

[00:27:59] Right.

[00:28:00] If they knew I was gay, you know?

[00:28:02] And what if I didn't get selected for a teen because, you know, there was homophobia?

[00:28:07] So I had a real fear.

[00:28:09] I mean, a real fear because I put in my life, this is my life's work.

[00:28:14] And then I feel like I need to, I'm going to need to throw it away if I come out.

[00:28:20] And so I lived under the radar.

[00:28:24] I mean, my friends and family knew I was out and not, not my teens.

[00:28:29] Really?

[00:28:30] I mean, I like kept it under wraps until I essentially met Frazier.

[00:28:37] And yeah, it's just, it was such like a beautiful evolution of love.

[00:28:44] I'm actually making these, I'm making this connection right now.

[00:28:47] Oh, great.

[00:28:48] It was like, welcome to our therapy session.

[00:28:52] I got to pay you.

[00:28:54] I mean, I think part of like true authentic love is feeling enough.

[00:29:02] Right.

[00:29:03] So for one of the first times in my life, I felt enough, like just however I was, however

[00:29:11] it was that day, however I showed up, it's like, yeah, you're enough, Leah.

[00:29:15] And so I think part of that gave me the confidence to be like, yeah, I'm enough.

[00:29:20] Like if I'm gay or not gay, it's, this is me.

[00:29:25] So then that kind of coincided with then, you know, fast forward a little bit of time

[00:29:31] after we met, then we got engaged in 2018.

[00:29:34] And so it was the lead up to us getting married and Cliff Bar.

[00:29:40] This is the importance of representation.

[00:29:43] So my contact at the time in marketing at Cliff Bar is also gay.

[00:29:49] Yeah.

[00:29:49] Oh, and so she knew that I was gay and I was engaged.

[00:29:54] And so it came time for Pride Month and everyone's looking around the room and going, do we have

[00:30:01] any gay athletes?

[00:30:02] I don't think we do.

[00:30:03] And she, and she raised her hand, you know, that's the importance of representation.

[00:30:08] Yes.

[00:30:08] Ripple effect.

[00:30:09] Yes.

[00:30:10] Um, and she said, yeah, we, we do.

[00:30:12] We actually, Leah is going to get married this fall.

[00:30:15] And they said, great, let's like throw her out there on social media and celebrate that.

[00:30:22] And for the first time, that aspect of myself was out there and it was celebrated.

[00:30:31] And that is such a powerful, uh, moment and gift for me because then it gave me permission

[00:30:41] like, oh my gosh, okay.

[00:30:42] My sponsors, like I, this is not something to be fearful of.

[00:30:47] Like they're going to actually celebrate.

[00:30:49] That's amazing.

[00:30:50] And yeah.

[00:30:50] And so that sent me free, honestly.

[00:30:54] And I wanted to give that gift of freedom to others who may be grappling with the same thing.

[00:31:01] So it was very intentional to like, it was one of my missions on social media to like, okay,

[00:31:09] now I need to represent, I want to represent this.

[00:31:13] So to create more space and give visibility to like, yes, you can be gay.

[00:31:19] Yes.

[00:31:20] You can be an Olympian and yes, you can be a sponsored athlete.

[00:31:24] Like have no fear.

[00:31:26] All of these things can exist.

[00:31:28] That's incredible.

[00:31:29] I'm curious because I feel like that could have gone a couple of different ways, right?

[00:31:33] Looking around the room, do we have a gay athlete?

[00:31:35] It could have gone the direction of feeling exploited, but you felt celebrated.

[00:31:39] Yeah.

[00:31:40] What do you think was the difference?

[00:31:43] Oh, that is a good question.

[00:31:45] I've never been asked that question.

[00:31:48] You're good at this.

[00:31:52] Thank you.

[00:31:53] You know, maybe it was because I was being represented in that room by a fellow gay female, you know?

[00:32:02] So that was more of a gift.

[00:32:05] Like it felt real and authentic.

[00:32:07] Like Leah's contact who advocated for her, Leah has become an advocate for other athletes,

[00:32:13] doing her part to help other LGBTQ athletes find that belonging.

[00:32:16] Devin Cowens, community organizer and founder of the Radical Adventure Writers Atlanta chapter,

[00:32:21] is another good wheel working tirelessly to help others find belonging in cycling.

[00:32:29] Community is something that we all need to be a part of, to fall back on, to provide support.

[00:32:35] We saw the way, you know, the government responded to COVID and how that exposed structural racism

[00:32:40] and mutual aid and community was the thing that got people through in a lot of ways.

[00:32:46] And so asking myself that question, how can I surround myself with people who have a similar

[00:32:53] interest, who want to shift this narrative?

[00:32:56] How can I tell my own stories to then shift someone else's view of how Black people are

[00:33:04] recreating and how stories are told about how we recogate?

[00:33:06] A lot of that is around education, having these conversations and taking that time to read

[00:33:12] more about Indigenous community, Indigenous practices, what actually happened, right?

[00:33:19] Doing some of the education and then connecting with folks who are working to build community,

[00:33:26] who are working to be in the outdoors with other folks of color, who are working with land management

[00:33:32] organizations, working with national parks, working with state parks to shift some of these old laws

[00:33:38] that were created years ago that weren't relevant for present day.

[00:33:42] There's all of these different ways that we can work on how folks of color are seen in nature

[00:33:49] and the outdoors.

[00:33:50] I was listening to a speech a few weeks ago and this guy was one of the four Black men who

[00:33:58] hiked Denali or something.

[00:34:00] And he was like, I want to stop being the first.

[00:34:03] Being the first in a thing, it's like, yes, that is great.

[00:34:05] But it's like, we're past 2000 and there's still all of these firsts.

[00:34:09] And asking us why?

[00:34:10] What systems exist where it takes so long for one of us to slip through?

[00:34:15] I don't want that to always be the story for us, right?

[00:34:20] Asking yourself as a white person, asking myself, what are these systems that are here

[00:34:25] that are in place that make it so hard for us to get to this?

[00:34:28] And asking those questions of like, why is it this?

[00:34:31] And then, as I said, surrounding with community, you know, I think my favorite parts about being

[00:34:36] Black is we can always find joy and comic relief.

[00:34:40] And so I think for me, like being community with other Black folks, other folks of color is

[00:34:44] just like having an opportunity to experience outdoors in a safe space, have a good time,

[00:34:50] you know, continue to be outside and, you know, have a sense of freedom within community.

[00:34:57] It may not be in my lifetime where things change and I'm okay with that.

[00:35:01] But I do think that continuing to be in conversation, having hard conversations,

[00:35:09] mobilizing communities, local government, national government to really work towards

[00:35:15] a society that looks different than what we see now, right?

[00:35:18] Like I find a lot of dreaming happens in communities of color, like a vision for a world that looks

[00:35:24] different than we're in now.

[00:35:26] Like being able to really like things in motion to make those dreams come to life.

[00:35:30] And like, that's going to take a long time, but I have to feel hopeful because that's how

[00:35:34] I can get through my day to day.

[00:35:36] And then, you know, I think because of the society we live in, we need white people to

[00:35:43] support these movements, right?

[00:35:45] Because white people have power.

[00:35:47] And so recognizing that that's the thing.

[00:35:49] So being able to like find those good people who can help move the needle, right?

[00:35:53] Like that's really key.

[00:35:55] Yeah.

[00:35:55] Yeah.

[00:35:56] It's like, you know, there's so many pieces there.

[00:35:58] And it's, I think it can feel overwhelming as one person, but a community doesn't exist unless

[00:36:07] you have individuals who are willing to ask themselves that question.

[00:36:11] What role do I play?

[00:36:13] And to find, as you said, other people who shared, you know, similar will and vision and dreams

[00:36:23] to come together and organize in a way to make collective action and think about, okay, what

[00:36:30] are the areas where I do have some influence?

[00:36:33] And it's hard to think of that as power, but it is, right?

[00:36:36] Influence is power.

[00:36:37] And if I have even a little bit of that, then why do I have that is an important question

[00:36:45] to ask.

[00:36:46] And then what can I do with that?

[00:36:48] And it's not just what role do you actually play in the moment, but what role do you want

[00:36:54] to play?

[00:36:55] A lot of people are okay with the savage quo.

[00:36:57] Too many people.

[00:36:58] We need more disruptors, but influence is power.

[00:37:01] We all have a role to play in the ecosystem.

[00:37:04] What does that mean?

[00:37:04] Right?

[00:37:04] It doesn't need to be necessarily your life purpose, but you have a role to play.

[00:37:07] And so just really being able to dig into that, I think, gives me direction, a grounding

[00:37:12] space, which feels really important in this time, especially when there's so much happening

[00:37:17] in the world.

[00:37:18] Devin points out that community can offer a sense of freedom as well as a vision and mechanism

[00:37:23] for change.

[00:37:24] Catherine Bertine, author, athlete, activist, and filmmaker, echoes Devin's sentiment.

[00:37:33] The fact of the matter is we are all capable of creating change.

[00:37:37] We do not have to be famous, wealthy, Olympic champions.

[00:37:42] We can create change from exactly where we are and who we are.

[00:37:47] And I always, you know, my running joke is I'm like, yeah, if I was able to create change

[00:37:54] at the Tour de France from an apartment in Tucson, Arizona, then you all can do anything.

[00:37:59] You know, and it's so true.

[00:38:01] What I do very well is I'm a good organizer.

[00:38:04] I can organize.

[00:38:07] And that might sound like people are like, oh, you mean you can like rearrange your closet?

[00:38:11] Like, no, actually, I can't do that very well.

[00:38:12] But the organizational power that I have is to gather who stood at what and bring them together.

[00:38:20] You know, so I think anybody might be feeling like, oh, well, you know, I'm not a millionaire.

[00:38:27] I don't have a huge social media presence.

[00:38:30] I'm not famous.

[00:38:31] What can I do?

[00:38:32] A lot.

[00:38:33] You can do a lot.

[00:38:35] Because I did.

[00:38:37] It's so cute.

[00:38:38] We also heard from Marlee Blonsky, co-founder of All Bodies on Bikes, fat adventure cyclist,

[00:38:43] and size inclusion advocate.

[00:38:45] She has been creating connection and community across North America and shared her take on

[00:38:49] the difference between inclusion and true belonging.

[00:38:54] Inclusion is the first step.

[00:38:56] It's being invited to the group ride.

[00:38:58] It's being invited to the conversation.

[00:38:59] But belonging is knowing that you can bring your whole self.

[00:39:03] That you don't have to worry about being less behind.

[00:39:06] It's like, no, they know that I'm slow.

[00:39:08] They know that, you know, these are my opinions on things or this is what I bring to the table.

[00:39:14] And, you know, belonging is being able to say those things and having your opinion heard

[00:39:20] and listened to.

[00:39:21] And so, you know, what we strive for with All Bodies on Bikes, it's a sense of belonging.

[00:39:25] That these spaces were designed with you in mind and that you can bring your full authentic

[00:39:30] self to an All Bodies on Bikes event or to a meetup or, you know, whatever it might be.

[00:39:34] And that, yeah, you feel included, but you also feel like this is for me.

[00:39:38] I belong here.

[00:39:41] And it's a fine line.

[00:39:42] I feel like I can feel it inside when I'm included for the sake of being included versus it's like,

[00:39:50] no, they actually want me to be there.

[00:39:52] What are some things that, let's say, maybe folks who are already involved in their local

[00:39:57] communities can do that you've seen work in terms of increasing opportunities for belonging?

[00:40:03] I think it's making an effort to get to know folks that are there, you know, as simple as

[00:40:08] having a conversation, as asking someone's pronouns, you know, getting to know their story,

[00:40:15] remembering their name when they come back a second time, that they're not just, you know,

[00:40:19] another number that goes on your grant reports.

[00:40:22] If we had 36 people at 18 events or whatever it might be, but learning their stories, incorporating

[00:40:27] their feedback into future events, asking their opinions on things, setting aside your

[00:40:33] ego and your ideas about how some things should look and, you know, getting that feedback from

[00:40:38] the folks that you're inviting and actually taking into account.

[00:40:41] Yeah, I think those are all things that can be done.

[00:40:44] And there's no one magic cure-all, but I think it takes genuinely caring and, you know, actively

[00:40:51] wanting us to be there and ensuring that we have space to be ourselves.

[00:40:57] There's a real magic to the genuine connection that is only possible when you can truly be

[00:41:02] yourself, when you're seen and appreciated for who you really are, not for an image that

[00:41:07] you're trying to portray.

[00:41:09] Cultivating the trust and acceptance that support a sense of belonging are key to fostering the

[00:41:13] relationships, networks, and communities that can fundamentally change us for the better.

[00:41:18] Sometimes those aims require systemic change.

[00:41:21] Industrial and organizational psychologist, PhD researcher, and CEO, English Saul, shared

[00:41:27] some of what she has learned from system catalysts, folks who are building, moving,

[00:41:31] and changing those systems.

[00:41:36] I'm a firm believer that I think you can change the world ultimately by changing the

[00:41:40] way people see themselves, right?

[00:41:43] Oh, I love that.

[00:41:44] As being part of something, being part of building something, being part of this shared human

[00:41:51] experience that we all have, right?

[00:41:53] The definition of solidarity is being able to see my human experience in you and fighting

[00:42:00] for a better human experience that benefits both of us because we are uniquely tied in

[00:42:07] this world.

[00:42:08] A lot of the way the world works right now is that it's comprised of systems and processes

[00:42:13] that work for a select few and don't work for everyone.

[00:42:19] Not every system will work for everyone, but everyone should have a system that works for

[00:42:23] them.

[00:42:24] And there are these people and there are these entities and there are these teams out there

[00:42:29] that are really doing their best to either build something from nothing, build systems

[00:42:35] that don't exist that should, or move systems, change the way in which we interact with the

[00:42:42] world around us.

[00:42:43] And they have amazing stories of how they're doing this.

[00:42:47] And a lot of the world that I exist in, there's a lot of emphasis around social entrepreneurship

[00:42:52] and creating solutions.

[00:42:55] I think that that's really valid.

[00:42:56] I mean, I've started a company to put a product out there that is a solution, in my opinion.

[00:43:01] Yeah.

[00:43:01] And it's really great.

[00:43:03] And you need those people.

[00:43:04] But the difference between what I'm talking about with a system catalyst and an entrepreneur

[00:43:09] or a social entrepreneur is that those entities and those people exist to sort of say, hey,

[00:43:14] here's a problem and here is a solution that could help that problem.

[00:43:18] Whereas a system catalyst is taking a sort of forest of the trees type of point of view

[00:43:23] saying, here's a bunch of solutions that I want to bring together.

[00:43:29] And I want to make sure that all of these different solutions or all of these different

[00:43:33] kind of processes or stakeholders are moving in the same direction because I'm trying to

[00:43:39] change an entire system, not just one specific problem or one specific gap.

[00:43:45] I'm trying to look at the whole system.

[00:43:47] I'm trying to move it slowly.

[00:43:50] It takes a lot.

[00:43:51] It takes a lot of effort.

[00:43:52] It takes a lot of people to be able to sort of move a system in its entirety so that it's

[00:43:58] actually working for the people that it is meant to be working for.

[00:44:01] What's something that you've taken from hearing these stories that maybe makes it less daunting?

[00:44:07] Or is there a common thread among people who are taking this on who don't feel daunted by it for

[00:44:12] some reason?

[00:44:12] I think everybody feels daunted by it.

[00:44:14] Everybody that I've ever spoken with who is, who touches this world is daunted by it because

[00:44:20] it feel, it does feel insurmountable, right?

[00:44:23] I mean, you're talking about trying to steer a massive tanker ship, right?

[00:44:29] And thinking about these huge ships and thinking about what it takes to steer it just a little

[00:44:33] bit more that way.

[00:44:35] It takes so much.

[00:44:36] They're very honest about the fact that like, it's really hard.

[00:44:40] But I do think, and this is a lot of what we try to emphasize, but it really is the people

[00:44:46] that make it less hard.

[00:44:48] In the same way that working with a team that you love makes winning the race a little bit

[00:44:55] sweeter, right?

[00:44:56] And a little bit easier.

[00:44:57] As though it's like the hardest work that you have ever done, it feels better.

[00:45:02] And I think that that's the same with System Catalysts.

[00:45:06] Everyone that we talk to cites the mentors.

[00:45:09] They cite their team.

[00:45:11] They cite the people that give them hope and give them nourishment.

[00:45:15] And that's really what it's about is doing it together.

[00:45:19] My co-host of that show, Jeff Walker, we hold these dinners where there's a topic and

[00:45:24] everybody kind of speaks to that topic.

[00:45:26] But he will often start these dinners and he will get everyone there to hum, just hum

[00:45:33] together.

[00:45:34] And he's like, okay, everybody hum.

[00:45:36] And everybody's like, okay, this is weird.

[00:45:38] But we all do it.

[00:45:40] And he's like, okay, just for a minute, y'all experience what it was like to do something

[00:45:44] together, to create a sound, to create music together.

[00:45:47] And it feels so much better doing that with a group of people than just sitting there humming

[00:45:52] in the corner by yourself, right?

[00:45:54] It also feels a little less crazy.

[00:45:57] And so I think that that's a really amazing, symbolic way to say this is what system change

[00:46:05] feels like.

[00:46:05] It feels like collaboration.

[00:46:07] And it feels like this ability to keep going, even when you're really tired, because you

[00:46:14] know that it's like a relay race.

[00:46:15] You can kind of put somebody else in while you rest and then pick the torch back up and

[00:46:21] go again.

[00:46:22] And it's a long game.

[00:46:23] It's a real long game.

[00:46:25] A long game.

[00:46:26] When we set our sights on big goals and big dreams, we settle in for the long haul.

[00:46:32] Whether we're aiming for a personal goal to transform an entrenched system or to reconfigure

[00:46:37] our own role within the systems we inhabit, we know it will take a lot of effort, a lot

[00:46:42] of time, and we may not see results for a while.

[00:46:45] We know the path will be fraught with challenges.

[00:46:47] So as you dream big dreams, and I hope you're dreaming big dreams, make connection a part of

[00:46:54] your vision, of your plan.

[00:46:56] Imagine being able to rely on your relationships to help you weather tough times.

[00:47:00] And picture the joy you'll feel at being able to do the same for others.

[00:47:05] Not only can you help each other achieve big things, but in doing so, you can create profound

[00:47:10] shared experiences.

[00:47:12] I asked former pro cyclist and current workplace health and wellness expert, Pete Morris, what

[00:47:16] he thinks sparks that magic element of communal experience that he sees in the group rides that

[00:47:22] he organizes.

[00:47:23] I think it's actually like a shared goal, let's call it.

[00:47:32] Because the goals aren't what we traditionally think of as goals, right?

[00:47:37] It's not 300 watts for three hours.

[00:47:40] It's everybody starts the ride, everybody makes it through the whole thing, and everybody has

[00:47:44] a good time.

[00:47:45] And that's the goal.

[00:47:47] Then people are much more willing to stop.

[00:47:49] We always have tons of stops on our ride.

[00:47:51] And what that does is all of a sudden it unwinds the situation where, well, there's going to

[00:47:56] be a stop in Tahoma in the next 20 minutes.

[00:47:58] So like I can eat all my food, I can get more, they can fix anything that's a problem, and

[00:48:03] everybody's going to take the break.

[00:48:04] And then the shared goal goes back to having fun.

[00:48:08] And so we've sort of removed the ulterior goals out of the situation to only having fun and making

[00:48:15] sure everybody makes it to the end.

[00:48:16] And then the shared responsibility of that in the group turns it into a community.

[00:48:21] I like that.

[00:48:22] When the goal is focused on connection, then people view their goal in the group differently.

[00:48:27] And instead of being responsible to their own performance, they're responsible to each

[00:48:31] other.

[00:48:32] Yeah, so far so good.

[00:48:34] But yeah, there's always things to get better at too.

[00:48:37] A good part about cycling and community is it ebbs and flows so much.

[00:48:43] So different people want different things out of life and cycling.

[00:48:47] And as long as we keep bringing new opportunities to the table, you can get fulfillment out of

[00:48:54] all sorts of different things.

[00:48:56] The whole spectrum of athletic abilities show up.

[00:48:59] But what we do is we meter the expectations to everybody to accommodate.

[00:49:04] Yeah.

[00:49:05] And it works out.

[00:49:05] I really like that.

[00:49:06] The focus on connection, thinking about, you know, meet me as an individual on a group ride,

[00:49:11] me as an individual in a company, me as an individual in my local community, I'm responsible

[00:49:17] for myself, which I am at all times.

[00:49:20] But that responsibility also extends to your interactions with other people and can't completely

[00:49:26] be responsible for somebody else's experience.

[00:49:29] They also play a part in that.

[00:49:30] But there's a difference between me being present, you being present and us talking and

[00:49:35] us both being present to the rhythm connection in the conversation itself.

[00:49:39] It's a different presence.

[00:49:41] It's a different focus.

[00:49:42] And when you think about that as extending to a team or a community, like we are contributing

[00:49:47] to that community space.

[00:49:49] And the community space is what creates the experience for everybody, which is so lovely because

[00:49:54] everybody has something to contribute.

[00:49:56] Yes.

[00:49:57] And it's the culminate or right.

[00:49:58] Like, just like you said, it's not your sole responsibility, but it's like a very nice

[00:50:03] byproduct of who you are showing up that day.

[00:50:06] Yeah.

[00:50:06] Because if you have this amazing time connecting with people, it's not just something that's

[00:50:10] handed to you.

[00:50:11] It's fulfilling because you had a part in creating it.

[00:50:15] Exactly.

[00:50:16] No, I think it really is such an intangible thing to turn something from good to great.

[00:50:24] And I think this is the closest I've come to thinking about it in a productive manner.

[00:50:29] But it is the contribution of what everybody brings.

[00:50:32] It's hard to put your finger on, I guess, is what it is.

[00:50:35] Like, how do you understand what, like, thinking about races, right?

[00:50:39] Or groups of friends.

[00:50:41] Like, what turns it from good to great or amazing?

[00:50:44] And a lot of the times you can't actually tell why, but you know it is.

[00:50:49] Right.

[00:50:50] It's not a clear metric.

[00:50:52] Yes.

[00:50:54] Unmeasurable.

[00:50:57] And it's so real.

[00:50:59] Like, we can affect and experience it.

[00:51:02] Yeah.

[00:51:03] Yeah.

[00:51:03] I like the contribution.

[00:51:05] I'm thinking about this, like, weird amorphous cloud that's, like, hanging out in between

[00:51:10] everybody that's being contributed to.

[00:51:13] But.

[00:51:13] Yeah.

[00:51:14] It's a really interesting kind of mental picture.

[00:51:16] And when you think about it like that, it changes how you're present to the conversation.

[00:51:21] It kind of ties in what you were saying earlier.

[00:51:23] Like, it takes a lot to be present like that.

[00:51:26] And not in a bad way, but because you are giving something up to create this energy, this connection,

[00:51:32] to go up with this full presence and experience that.

[00:51:36] Because it is magic.

[00:51:37] Like, there are moments in work on teams or in bike racing on teams where you just feel the magic.

[00:51:43] And it's that incredible experience where, like you said, everyone is aligned.

[00:51:48] Everyone is working toward the same goal.

[00:51:51] You feel so deeply that everyone has your back.

[00:51:54] You have your teammates' backs.

[00:51:55] And you make this amazing thing happen.

[00:51:58] And it's the old cliche, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

[00:52:02] Yes.

[00:52:02] Yeah.

[00:52:03] And it really, I think those are the experiences that change you.

[00:52:07] So, again, like going, I don't want to make it all about that, but really think about when you show up and how things change you in your life.

[00:52:18] And work can positively change you with magic situations like that.

[00:52:21] Like, teams can change you.

[00:52:23] Like, everything can change you very positively by making you do something you didn't think you could do.

[00:52:29] And that's like all it is, is there's no way we can do this thing at work.

[00:52:34] There's no way we can win this bike race.

[00:52:36] There's no way, you know, it doesn't really matter.

[00:52:38] It's that you set out to do something and then you performed at an ability that either you thought was possible or didn't know was possible.

[00:52:47] And then you turned it into something.

[00:52:48] And the end result is almost irrelevant.

[00:52:51] Yeah.

[00:52:52] It's like, it's the thing that happened to you with these people all at the same time and coming out the other side.

[00:52:58] It's like a collective, connected act of creation.

[00:53:01] You always have the power to connect and you always have the power to contribute to and influence the way the connection feels, you know, the vibe in the community.

[00:53:15] Like, that is, it is an act of creation.

[00:53:18] And every single one of us has that to offer and does have a ripple effect.

[00:53:23] And it can, like you said, expand beyond, you know, the smaller sphere of influence throughout even a company and certainly enough to impact other people in your life.

[00:53:34] Yeah.

[00:53:35] And I think to me now, after talking, it's such a small thing to bring to the table that has so many positive aspects to it.

[00:53:45] But it's always a choice.

[00:53:48] Like, it goes back to you can make the choice over and over to do the thing and trust that the positive implications will far outweigh, like, the cost of that choice to you.

[00:54:01] So, like, I think it's a, it's almost like a trust the process situation.

[00:54:06] And it will only benefit you, right?

[00:54:09] Yeah.

[00:54:09] Thinking about the way you're changing yourself with the way you're spending your time and energy in the world makes it way easier to do hard things or do things you don't want to do.

[00:54:18] And be appreciative of those things maybe after the fact.

[00:54:24] But it's all about positively impacting you to positively impact the world more and more.

[00:54:31] We live in a world that encourages individual effort and glorifies individual achievement.

[00:54:37] But when it comes to the things that impact us deeply, they're often moments of profound, heartwarming, soul-stirring connection.

[00:54:46] The people that change us for the better.

[00:54:48] The relationships that propel us to new heights and the communities that hold our grief and our dreams for a brighter world.

[00:54:54] We find joy and growth in connection.

[00:54:56] We find collective will in organizing together for change.

[00:54:59] As the year and our first season both draw to a close, let's look to the good wheels in our lives.

[00:55:05] How can we be there for each other?

[00:55:07] How can we connect, grow, organize, and change together?

[00:55:11] Let's all dream big and let's get it done together.

[00:55:14] Thank you for supporting us this season.

[00:55:16] We'll be back with more in 2025.

[00:55:18] We hope you enjoyed this review of some of our conversations from this season.

[00:55:22] If you missed hearing from any of these guests, I encourage you to go back and listen to their episodes.

[00:55:27] It will be time well spent.

[00:55:29] Be a Good Wheel podcast is produced by our wizard behind the curtain, Maxine Philivan.

[00:55:35] Maxine and I are already planning for season two and we'll share more about that on our Instagram page at Be A Good Wheel.

[00:55:41] Give us a follow and if you appreciate what we're doing, please support us on Ko-Fi.

[00:55:45] Our memberships get you access to extended video versions of each interview.

[00:55:49] Go to ko-fi.com for more details or check the link in our show notes.

[00:55:54] Find all published episodes and sign up for our newsletter at beagoodwheel.com.

[00:55:58] You can also listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:56:01] Until next time, thanks for listening and thanks for being a Good Wheel.