Big Dreams, Spontaneous Ideas, and Paying It Forward with Ayesha McGowan

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and so maybe I needed to step away and figure some things out and maybe come back or maybe

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I need to step away and figure some things out and not come back. Either way, I'd have

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to be okay with it. And I feel like that was another decision that I was okay making

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: because again of my age, I'm 37 now and by this point most people are retiring well

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: before this point actually. And so that's another like kind of like check against me when it

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: comes to trying to find another contract. So I think I was okay with the idea that

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: if I did step away, I wouldn't be able to return. It'd be nice too if that's what

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted after all of this but I was okay with the idea that maybe that was it.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I set this goal, I achieved that goal and everything else was just you know kind of

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: gravy on top and so I was fine with whatever happened next. That's professional cyclist Ayesha

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: McGowan talking about her decision to step away from world tour racing and focus on her

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: health and the programs she's founded and grown. Many years ago Ayesha set out to

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: become the role model that she didn't have and is now the first ever African-American

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: woman professional road cyclist. Today she shares her experiences in achieving that goal,

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: why she's prioritizing her personal well-being and how she's creating a pipeline for women

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: of color to get into in advance with in cycling. You're listening to the Be a Good

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Wheel podcast, the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel by digging into

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: scientific research and personal stories about human potential and performance. I'm your host,

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Amber Pierce. Today we have the honor of speaking with American cycling icon Ayesha

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: McGowan. As the first ever African-American woman professional road cyclist she is celebrated

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: not only for her athletic talent but also her unwavering commitment to creating a more

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: inclusive and equitable space in cycling. A sport that is still embedded with old systems

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that hinder representation and frankly lags behind many other sports. Case in point,

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: when Ayesha got into racing and looked around for role models in the sport she found

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: none who looked like her. At the time a few women of color had raced at the pro level

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but with nowhere near enough representation to normalize racing at the highest level

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and none had been African-American women. In fact there had never been an African-American

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: woman to race professionally on the road. Some people may have shrugged this off,

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: not McGowan. She decided overnight to become the role model she didn't have and she made it

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: happen. After racing in the UCI Women's World Tour for Live Racing Tech Find in Europe for

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: years she recently decided to take a break. She'd been racing a full calendar while trying to

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: manage a debilitating string of illness and injuries. The dual strain of those efforts

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: took a toll, one that she is meeting head-on with steadfast pursuit for answers and solutions

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and in the meantime she has plenty of other projects on her plate. To make it to the

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: professional level requires single-minded focus and dedication. A lot of people give up their

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: careers to focus exclusively on their sport and don't make it to the pro ranks. Not only

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: did Ayesha achieve her goal of racing at the top level of the sport, but she did so while building

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: an internationally recognized personal brand and not one but several successful programs and

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: businesses in parallel. What started as her blog titled A Quick Brown Fox has evolved into a

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: full-fledged business offering an expansive hub of programs and resources for aspiring athletes.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: These include the Do Better Together Ride, The Abundance Project, and The Black Foxes,

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: all of which are linked in the show notes. McGowan has also served as a member of the

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: USACycling DEI committee and currently sits on the board of Rails to Trails, a transportation

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: advocacy not-for-profit organization. She's a gifted speaker and educator and while her work

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: has already established an unforgettable legacy she's not done yet. I hope you enjoy this

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: conversation as much as I did. Ayesha it's great to have you welcome to the show.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. Where are you calling in from right now? I am in San Gregorio, Spain which

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: is about five kilometers outside of Girona. Right on. How's the weather there these days?

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It is hot. It's about 90 degrees right now so. Oh man, very similar here on the East Coast.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We're in the 90s and it's miserably humid so good times. Yeah y'all can have that.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't need any humidity to add to it. No thanks. Yeah so I want to jump right in on a

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: question. You've had this very singular goal from very early on, like very early in your

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: story and like pretty shortly after you discovered bikes and bike racing

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and you achieved it and not many people have such a singular and lofty goal and even

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: people actually achieve such a goal. I'm curious how has the reality of achieving that dream

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: compared to what you imagined it might be? Yeah I'm not, I don't know. I feel like

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I never really had an expectation for what it would be like. I think I just wanted to do the

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: thing because I wanted to do the thing and then I did the thing and then I'm like oh this is

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: what it's like. So yeah, I have a really bad habit of not asking enough questions and kind

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of jumping into things so that's how we got where we got. Do you think that habit of not

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: asking questions and just jumping into things has actually been helpful? Yes for sure. I think if

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I asked more questions I would not have wanted to do the thing and I definitely would not have

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: actually achieved the thing. I think I would have been very discouraged so. Interesting why

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: do you think that is? I feel like it was actually really hard and I think if I knew how

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it would be from the very beginning I don't know that I would want to have done it as much as I

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: did. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe I still would but hindsight is 20-20 so I know a lot now.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And knowing what you know now by the time you realize all of this right you've stacked up

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: experience not just experience but skills that enable you to manage the challenges I guess. So

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: if you had known you as a writer and a person you were different when you were starting your

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: journey to a pro career and I can imagine at that point it would have been really intimidating

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but it seems to me that you've done it right so you're absolutely capable of handling

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: all the challenges and the difficulty. What part of that evolution do you think has really

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of helped you manage where you are now or handle the challenges that come with being a

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: professional cyclist? I think being the age that I was when I started probably had a whole lot

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: to do with it. I feel like I had lived a pretty full adult life before I started racing

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: bikes. Not that I was like a retiree or anything but I feel like most people start racing bikes

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: when they're younger and I was 26 or 27 starting out and so I think that helped me have more

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: perspective on myself as a person and the things that I wanted to do and the things I

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't want to do. I feel like I was a little less malleable in that I was willing to make

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: sacrifices for the goal but there were parts of myself that I wasn't willing to sacrifice which

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if I was much younger I would not have had that, we'll use the word confidence,

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the right word is but we'll use the word confidence to be true to myself.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it seems like that would take a combination of clarity and conviction to know what you

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: are and you aren't willing to give up, compromise on. Does that resonating?

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I think so. I feel like it wasn't just about the cycling goals but also about a lack

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of people of color in the sport, a lack of black people in the sport and creating that

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: positive representation that was authentic was pretty important as well.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I mean it seems like that would give you a lot of clarity and conviction from the start,

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: is that an accurate thing to say? Yeah I think so.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that you just mentioned is authenticity, it's speaking to authenticity

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and autonomy and you had this really interesting post on Instagram recently and I just want to

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: read the quote here. This was what you wrote in your caption, it was,

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it's been pretty weird having my full autonomy back and this is after you stepped away from

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: racing. There's so much sacrifice in doing what I was doing, lots of saying no to friends and

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: family even when you want to say yes so for now I'm taking my freedom and living my life.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Athletes talk a lot about sacrifice but I don't imagine that autonomy is the first thing that

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: comes to mind when athletes talk about sacrifice and yet when I read this it really did resonate

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: with me. How did you experience a shift in autonomy as you moved to the world tour?

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I was, how old was I then, 34 maybe I think and it was weird having other people

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: dictate my life at the age of 34. So I think that was the biggest thing I noticed was that I

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: resigned quite a bit of my autonomy to having other people schedule like how I lived,

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: where I could go, what I could do. Very strange and comes with the territory yes but still a very

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: strange thing for me. I agree and when you say that you're talking about like team managers

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and directors telling you where you're going to race, what your travel itinerary is,

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're staying, is that kind of what you're referring to when you're talking about

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that? Yeah for sure and like even like living in Europe is a choice and I'm really glad that

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I made but like the inability to go home, I don't think I went home to the United States for the

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: first like year and a half and that wasn't my choice. That was a weird thing for me like

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy being here and I enjoy living here but I don't like when I can't do the things

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because I can't do the things. Like if I wasn't going to go home I wanted that to be

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: choice that I made but it wasn't so that was weird. Yeah I honestly I had a similar experience

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and I remember feeling almost like when so much of just daily life is not within your control so

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: what time you're going training, if we were at the team house, when I had to be at the team

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: house, how we were going to travel to races even when you can eat so if you're at a race

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: when you get to eat, when the race is over, is dictated by when dinner's being served at the

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: hotel or when your team manager actually gets it together to take the team to a restaurant to get

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: food and it felt really infantilizing for me. I don't know does that word kind of resonate

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: with what your experience was? Yeah I'm pretty independent. I like to be able to like go and

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: do the things I want to do and I want to go and do them and I wasn't able to and so that was

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: it was weird. It was just really strange. It was a strange feeling. Especially at that stage of life

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: in our team I remember there were lots of different ages and so there were some really

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: young riders where it was almost like in a way I kind of looked at them as like these

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: young kids that were away at camp right? Like they need that structure and they need that

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: supervision but it felt really weird as just a grown adult to have that level of supervision

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and control. Yeah so obviously now you've stepped away from racing and it sounds like you're really

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: enjoying having that freedom back. What has that shift been like? Yeah I don't know. I feel like

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I have my autonomy and it's I still don't quite know how to use it. I'm like trying

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to figure that out but also trying to be a responsible adult and like trying to you know

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: go to bed at an appropriate hour, eat meals at an appropriate hour, not you know do all of the

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: things that sound fun because they're there but just do you know a reasonable amount of fun

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: things. Yeah autonomy is pretty great and I guess it's also different for me because

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have like a nine-to-five job where I don't have to be in a place at a specific

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: time every single day and part of that lack of autonomy before was training. Like I couldn't

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: do anything or go anywhere because I had to ride my bike every single day and I had to get it done

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: within a reasonable hour so I could also eat and so I could also rest and do all the like

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: appointments that I needed to do or meetings or whatever and so now I'm going through like

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: a medical thing and so I can't train as much and that's also weird. It's like okay

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe I want to train more. Maybe I like that structure of having my life kind of,

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have to think about it as much so I'm just in a weird head space when it comes to

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: like what it actually means to have my autonomy back because I don't fully know what to do with

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it. Yeah yeah that makes sense. I mean when all of those decisions are being made for you

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: it feels weird and uncomfortable at times but also it removes a lot of stuff that you have

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to think about right? Like you yeah there's just so many decisions that you don't have to make

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: anymore and on one hand that could be really beneficial for you know training and racing

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: because all you really have to think about is the training and racing and I think well

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: on most teams that's like the positive side of the intent with that but then the flip

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: side of that is you know going back to where you are now yeah like all of a sudden there

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: are so many more decisions for you to have to make at this point in time at a time when it's

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine this is not this might feel like a pretty confusing time given like your your

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: struggles with illness and injury in the last gosh years now right? Yeah it's been quite

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: a few quite a few years of one thing or another so I feel like I've been like starting and

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: stopping a bunch doing that like I'll have my autonomy to make my decisions but then

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: my health will dictate in a way of what I can and cannot do. Right so there goes that

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: another it's like all right I guess like I can't eat what I want or I can't like go where I want

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: or do the things that I want and life is weird. Well I want to talk a little bit for a second

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: about your decision to step away because I remember reading your post when you announced

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: this and I just felt this flood of admiration for your ability to see what you needed and

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: make that really empowered decision to step away which I can see as potentially being difficult

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: on a couple of levels. One is like you've set this huge goal for yourself you've achieved it

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know to step away from that I imagine probably wasn't easy and then there's also

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and correct me if this wasn't your experience but it feels like in to me at least in sport

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: there's this constant pressure and urgency to get the next thing right get the next result get

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the next contract and stepping away is something that honestly I probably needed to do in my

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: career a couple times and would have really benefited from but I always caved to that fear

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of okay if I step away how do I come back and you know so I never actually took that time away

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to you know address the the fallout from injuries and illnesses and burnout and then kind of ended

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: up carrying all of that into the next year and in the next year and I just I'm really curious

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of what into what went into this decision for you because I imagine it I imagine it was

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: hard but maybe it wasn't for you I don't know what what was making that decision like for you.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it was a pretty tough year I don't know I've blocked a lot of it out so in

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: this exact moment I can't remember why this tough year I just remember having a really hard

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah fair fair and ah that's right I uh come back from my surgery and was hit with this like

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: wave of anxiety anxiety and that was making it really hard to race I couldn't eat before races

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and then I'd just feel sick during them and it was really frustrating because my actual like

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling in my brain and like the sensations that I had was of excitement and desire and I

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted to do this thing but my body was rebelling it in every way just not wanting to be a part of

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this like if I would go toward the the dining area I would just get nauseous I couldn't even

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: be near food let alone eat it oh man I was just angry like angry every day because I'm

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: just like what in the world like I've gone through all of this stuff already and figured

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that out and now this like what am I supposed to do with this and there's like I can't my

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: brain I can't like do anything about my brain it's just I just have to brain like this is

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: it's literally in control and I feel like I I can't really do a whole lot about it and I

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: guess there's that autonomy again it's one if it's not one thing's taking it away it's another

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think after several months of that like there's just no way you can get results when

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the experience that you're having and after several months of that I just

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: was feeling like I needed to step away and the opportunities that I was being offered didn't seem

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: worth putting myself through that again because I also I didn't have you know the great

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: results and I didn't put together a fantastic career once I got to the world tour and so

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I am not in the best position when it comes to bargaining for a new contract and I could have

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: a contract if I wanted it but a contract and a contract worth my time energy and

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: mental health was not what I was being offered to be honest and so I decided that

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe I needed to step away and figure some things out and maybe come back or

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe I need to step away and figure some things out and not come back either way I'd

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: be okay with it and I feel like that was another decision that I was okay making because

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: again of my age I think 37 now yes that's correct and by this point most people are retiring

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like well before this point actually and so that's another like kind of like check against

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: me when it comes to trying to find another contract so I think I was okay with the idea

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that you know if I did step away I wouldn't be able to return it'd be nice too if that's what

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted after all of this but I was okay with the idea that maybe that was it like I set this

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: goal I achieved that goal and everything else was just you know kind of gravy on top and so I

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: was fine with whatever happened next yeah this is I mean to me this seems like such an empowered

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: sense of self to honor your needs to honor the fact that you don't know right if you

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: want to come back or you don't want to come back but being okay with either case when you

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: make this decision I think you bring up the point of age which I think is so much more

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: important than I don't know it's not something that we talk about a lot it's just sort of like

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: oh is somebody a pro are they not a pro but somebody who turns pro at 20 or 19

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: versus somebody who turns pro in their late 20s or early 30s or late 30s it's a very

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: experience and I imagine that a younger writer who you know maybe they grew up and that's just all

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they ever wanted was to be a pro might take the contract for the sake of a contract even

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: at the expense of their physical health their mental health their overall well-being

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and you made a really great point too like when those things aren't there you can't perform

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean you're you're racing on the world tour like this is if your body isn't in optimal shape

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and functioning normally typically at this level like everybody's trying to optimize everything

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: right to like almost like a ridiculous extent so when your body isn't even healthy to start with

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you just set yourself up for a really like a dark downward spiral and I think that happens

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: so many young athletes I think age has a lot to do with that as you pointed out and I don't know

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: do you think there was anything else that played into your your sense of assurance in being able

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: to make that decision or what would you maybe say to a young athlete who's staring at a

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: contract and thinking like oh if I sign this contract I'm going to have everything I want

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: because I have the contract versus looking at what is this contract going to give me in terms

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: of opportunity I don't know that a contract is a guarantee

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's also a thing right like contracts can be broken especially if you're you know

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: health isn't there if you're not performing the way that they want you to or

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: if the expectations aren't being met they can take that away and you end up in the same

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: spot regardless but probably worse off for it and so I guess I don't know it was also

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like a financial decision too like if I accept a contract that doesn't like fulfill my financial

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: obligations then I also have to work in other ways while navigating this other pile of stuff

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and that just if I'm gonna have to work then just I'm just gonna work I'm not gonna

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not doing that again like I've done it it's terrible it's what you have to do on

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the way there but I don't think I could like do the thing get the thing and then

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: backtrack in that way not not now yeah and then and on top of that you're not yeah it's just

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: another way that you're you're not setting yourself up for success in the role now

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that makes sense like we've just seen paying people in the in the women's world tour has

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: significantly increased this the level of racing and that's because people don't also

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: work it's it's really simple who knew and so it always amazes me when you know women on the

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: the conti level and the club level can perform really really well while also holding down

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you know full-time or part-time jobs good for them yeah but they shouldn't they shouldn't have

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: to do that uh yeah it's it's so hard it's so much work it takes everything at that level

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean when you were talking about just even some of your physical symptoms like

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: feeling nauseated walking by you know the cafeteria that's a serious problem because

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: like you have got to eat in order to race at that level I mean the amount of energy

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that you guys expend when you're racing these stage races it's it's bonkers and everything

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: hat like everything has to be going right and devoting that kind of physical mental and

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: energy to another job I mean it's just it makes it incredibly difficult for you to

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: really find your potential as an athlete no it's not a it's not a recipe for success for sure

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not impossible but I feel like if it was the only thing I had to do then it would be

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: fine if it was just oh I have to work and I have to race I think I could do it but after

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: work I have to race I'll still have to figure out my health problems I have to like

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: do many things at the same time like I can't do all of them I can only do like one or two

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: well honestly truly I commend you for making that decision I think it's incredibly courageous

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: from where I sit and empowered and I think it sets an incredible example you know I know that

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you did this because this is what you needed to do but I also I'm really excited because you

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: have so much visibility and I'm excited for young and aspiring athletes to watch you make

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: decision and see that this is a viable decision like you can make this decision it's an option

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: if you ever end up in this position that you can step away and you can you can take that control

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: so for what that's worth I'm curious about the the job thing so obviously if you if you're

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: working a side gag or you have a some athletes even have full-time jobs on top of the racing

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: which makes it incredibly difficult on the other hand um I was working with a sports psychologist

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: a long time ago and she made this point to me and I thought of it as we were talking so I'm curious

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: what you think about this that it's actually important to have something other than the

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: racing in your life a passion and interest of something else that you're pursuing because

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: when the racing doesn't go well and inevitably it will not go well at times at some point

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: yep yeah you have this other facet of identity or another passion that you can lean into

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: so that your whole world doesn't come crashing down when the racing isn't going well right

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: because eventually the racing will pick back up again I mean like it's not inevitable that it's

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: going to suck forever but it helps to have something else to lean onto you have created

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: so many cool initiatives and programs along the way in your career and you spoke to this

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: already you know bringing awareness and representation to the sport and being the

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: African-American woman pro cyclist like has that helped you from like a mental health perspective

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: even along this journey of racing for sure I think I had the advantage of having something

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: bigger than myself as a driving force which is really cool and it made it so that even when

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the racing wasn't going particularly well that I had you know other positive things happening

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: in my atmosphere to kind of keep me motivated and so yeah I think that that's been really great

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and I highly recommend having something other than the racing because a lot of bike racers are

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: very one-dimensional and I mean I'm pretty socially awkward for like various reasons but

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's because I haven't you know done things in like lived life but I feel

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: for a lot of professional cyclists it's the only thing they've ever done and it makes

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: for a very interesting or not super interesting person rather some pretty one-dimensional

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: interviews out there I'm not gonna lie do you think that's been a net positive then having

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: this goal bigger than yourself in for sure in your in specifically in your pursuit of becoming

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely yeah because I also imagine and you have been pretty open about sharing that

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: in those endeavors it has also been challenging at times yeah it's a lot of work and I have

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: help thankfully but it does take up a lot of of time and brain space and you know thankfully

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: while I was racing it didn't take up too much of my like physical space in time minus like

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: meetings I did a lot of virtual meetings but I didn't have to like physically be anywhere which

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: was super helpful but yeah it takes its toll and it definitely requires a set of sacrifice

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that I didn't always have so racing at the world tour there is a lot of pressure just

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: straight up of racing professionally getting results day in day out at the races training

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: making sure you know you're prepared and then all of the other things that you're doing

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: even if these are things that you are creating and initiating for yourself there's also pressure

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: there too and then add to that I'm assuming and correct me if I'm wrong that there's a lot

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: of pressure with just publicly stating your goal of becoming the first professional woman

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: african-american cyclist what have you learned about dealing with pressure and did

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: you actually experience a sense of pressure in those things first of all and if so how did

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you learn to manage that I think that the other things happening in my life were far more

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: daunting so I didn't really have the like energy or capacity to even like worry about

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: or deal with those kinds of pressures I was so consumed with trying to figure out mostly

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff to be honest it was usually some sort of something was happening I couldn't eat or

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: my anxiety was really bad or an injury or like whatever but I feel like I never had like

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: me as an individual was smooth sailing so I had time capacity to deal with what other people

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: were thinking I don't think I yeah I don't feel like I really had to worry about that so much

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: there were like team pressures from management and ownership and that could be a little daunting

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: at times but I feel like as far as like the general public I could care less

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think from the onset nobody thought I was going to do what I was going to do anyway so

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: it didn't matter I'll say not nobody I feel like I know a lot of people who really believed

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I get what you're saying I feel like quite a few the it's one of those things where the

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: negatives always feel louder than the positives um and I feel like I learned how to tune that out

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty early on because it didn't feel nice so we just uh turned that volume down

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: so was that a skill that you learned out of like necessity and survival or was that something

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you intentionally worked on probably both I think in the beginning I always felt like oh I have to

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: tell them they're wrong and respond to everybody and be really present and then at some point

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like I don't owe anyone my time and that was a much better method

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that's such a hard lesson to learn and yeah for sure do you think that

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: was experience or age or both that kind of helps you get to that point definitely both

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely both I'm asking because I'm imagining that there might be some young athletes listening

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to this who are thinking like wow that's something that I really struggle with right

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: now too and I'm I'm wondering you know what what they might be able to learn from your

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: experience in that in that regard people say don't read the comment section it's really hard

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: not to I always read the comment section but now I find it funny when it's like negative

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of upsetting and there was a point where I made like a bingo card of all of the things

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that people would normally say and that made it more of like a fun game that's brilliant

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that's amazing but that was definitely one of my coping mechanisms earlier on just making

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: this like bingo card of like all right these are the the things that have been repeated to

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: me over and over again that don't make me feel particularly good but I have to accept that

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: this is how some people feel and that's gonna be what it's gonna be like I imagine being able

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to laugh about it would take so much power out of it yeah and now at this point when I see it

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it's funny because it's like why are you still upset let it go we all need to just let it all

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: go it's fine but you you mentioned that the the negative voices often feel the loudest and

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that so much and I think that is one of the hardest things is that we assign so much

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: more weight to the negative comments than to the compliments right like the compliments just sort

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: of like you're like oh yeah yeah that's nice but and then yeah thanks there's all these caveats

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in our own heads of like uh-huh right whatever and then somebody says the negative thing and

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: then for me personally like I'll find myself stewing about it for a week and I don't love

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that about myself it's not something that like is particularly helpful but I think that's a

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: human reaction so yeah I love I love that strategy of if of finding a way to laugh about

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: it and bring humor to the situation I think that could be a really really helpful tool

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for probably athletes of any age I would guess yeah yeah on that note so how has community

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: played a role in your success because you actually before we get to that talking about

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: pressure in these team environments you've you've been in a lot of team environments

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of high performance environments and through the projects that you've been building

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the abundance mini grant the abundance program black foxes you have created teams and businesses

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: for yourself how have you modeled your approach to that like as a leader a team member you know

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: entrepreneur what have you learned through racing and seeing other management styles

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership styles either in the sport of cycling in the racing or in the industry itself what are

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you taking from that and what are you trying to do differently I feel like the main difference

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and this will sound I guess shady but the main difference is that I've found that people

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: respond better to supportive environments

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and will perform better if they feel like they have the resources and the backup to

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to do so and so that's something that I really try to bring into the abundance project

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to alleviate those pressures as much as I can yeah and encourage people to to do the

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: things that they showed up to do most people aren't racing bikes out of obligation

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: especially on an amateur level so to make it so heavy doesn't make sense to me I do try and

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: bring some realistic acts like aspects of things into it because it's not all rainbows and

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: sunshine and bike racing is hard and you have to take care of yourself in a lot of different

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: ways and so trying to like incorporate pieces of that into the programs and that's harder for me

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: because I'm a big softy but just trying to I don't know like if I'm if we want people

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to race bikes I don't think we can make it seem impossible again my programs are not yeah

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: at a world tour level so I get a bit more leeway there but yeah just trying to create

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: supportive environments of fun and like openness and not necessarily low stakes but

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: making it okay if things don't go well yeah instead of making it the end of the world

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: if things don't go well yeah how do you do that isolating races encouraging people to try

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: again for the next time and I think that's a skill you learn in stage racing really like if

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: have a bad day and you sit on that bad day then it's going to ruin the rest of your stage race

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think it's probably you know easier for me to say that because I'm never going to be a

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: GC contender but in just in general I think at the level that the abundance project writers

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: are riding just encouraging them to like take things one day at a time and leave the day

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: them even if it went well like just carry the momentum of taking each day as a new experience

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and a new opportunity which I feel like at the higher level which maybe it makes sense I don't

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_01]: know there's not a whole lot of direction there's not a ton of direction um there might be you

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: instructions for the moment and that's fine but I don't think that there's anyone there to like

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: help with the human parts of things and I feel like there are a lot of bike racers who need

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: help with the human parts of things because we're not robots it is hard being a human

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: it is hard being a human it's so hard and yeah I don't know oh there's so many things

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I would change about about bike racing specifically women's bike racing but alas

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: one thing at a time you bring up two really good items to add to the list of things to

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_00]: change about women's bike racing if you will one being the supportive environments and

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: as you were saying that I was just reflecting back thinking oh yeah thinking of the the

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: people on the staff you know for a pro team there's mechanics to take care of the bikes

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: there's you know directors and managers to take care of logistics and strategy and they cover

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: almost all of the bases except the hardest freaking part which is that human side of it

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and the the mental and emotional side of it and I understand like some of those things

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: are really individual and I guess to some degree they expect that the athletes will

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: manage that for themselves yep but even when you're in a team environment like there's

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: whole the team aspect of it is really important cultivating you know camaraderie and connection

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: among the team and I think from what I've observed you've done a really incredible job

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: with that with the projects that you've put together what has really worked for you in

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: terms of that so you've mentioned supportive environment but kind of what are some of like

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the the actionable things that you've done that create that supportive environment or

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: cultivate that connection and camaraderie I think the connection part can only be achieved by

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: spending time together and I feel like cycling is a weird sport because it's a team sport

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but we all train individually there's not like we have like camps maybe a few times a year

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but other than that you're mostly alone unless you have like a riding partner but it's

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the teams aren't all living in the same place they're not all training together all of the time

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it's you're together when you're together and then when you're apart it's kind of you're left

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to your own devices like figure things out you're probably in your head a lot so whatever

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: progress and stuff that you've made during that time together it kind of goes out the window

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: once you once you leave and it's also like a bunch of different combinations of people

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: you don't always have the same grouping of teamwork not everybody knows how to work

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: together really well and it's different when you've had the same teammates for several years

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but there's also a lot of turnover so you don't really get to build that the way that I

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: would benefit the sport the most and then you also have like that internal fight against everyone

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: where some people have a one-year contract some people have a two-year contract some people have

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: more but are you there for the team are you just there trying to survive like

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't really build camaraderie with that it's yeah it's much harder to

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: because people have to look out for themselves because the sport doesn't look out for you

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's it's tough it's so tough we'll be back with more from Aisha McGowan after this quick break

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[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: thing going sign up for a be a good wheel membership on ko-fi and get access to extended

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[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that's ko-fi.com be a good wheel and now back to our conversation with American Cycling icon

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Aisha McGowan you you mentioned earlier that the minimum salary that the UCI has finally

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_00]: instituted for the Women's World Tour has made such a difference in the level of

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: professionalism and competition and I think what you're speaking to right now is probably one of

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the big factors of that is giving the women the financial security that they need so

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they're not just scrapping for the next contract they can focus on things like

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_00]: team connection and camaraderie and yeah maybe even have multiple you know multi-year contracts

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and and going back to you know that young rider who's coming in and they want to go pro

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: they want to have that contract and maybe being willing to take a contract or first of all believing

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that the contract is going to give them what it says it's going to give them and second of all

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: not really caring necessarily what it's going to give them you know financially or in terms

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: of support or restarts but just to be able to sign that contract and kind of not tick the

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: box but like in their mind achieve that goal it does create an environment where you have a

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: turnover because if somebody like yourself says listen this contract does not give me what I need

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: to be successful and this is not what I'm looking for and you make the empowered decision

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to walk away from that contract like chances are in reality there's probably five or ten other

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: cyclists that would be scrambling for that contract yeah and it creates a little bit of

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: a race to the bottom I think yeah for sure everyone's fighting over scraps and it's really

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: unfortunate I'm really curious to see that they now that they've announced that they're going to

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: introduce a pro level a protein level for the women what that does if anything really curious

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah so just to add some context to that the UCI has announced that currently there's the

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: continental level and the world tour level and the world tour level has a salary minimum

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the women the continental level does not the continental level is professionally organized teams

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know the the level of support and professionalism is going to vary wildly and

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_00]: then what the UCI has announced is that there's going to be another level kind of between those

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: levels that they're calling the pro level and hopefully it'll create more of a pipeline

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but this actually ties back to one of the things that you've been working on with

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the abundance program and the abundance project excuse me I love the way that you have been

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: really organically building a pipeline through this and I want to speak to that but also

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: mention that when I was doing my research and I was looking at all of the

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: wonderful things that have come from this project it was so cool to see how much everybody

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: who's been a part of the project connects with each other at the races even when they've

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: moved on to different teams and they're no longer you know actually teammates like how

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they are so there for each other at these races even if they might be racing against each other

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_00]: it's really cool you've done an incredible thing on the team camaraderie front but tell me a

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: little bit about how you've been thinking about this vision with like a total pipeline from

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe just getting into the sport and building a pathway for athletes to advance through the

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: world. Yeah so initially I was concerned that nobody would apply and then we got

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: hundreds of applications it's great but so in America you've got the different levels of

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: amateur so now the women start as a novice which can be called cat five and then you

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: can upgrade to cat four and then three and then as a two you can race on the UCI level

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and so my goal is to get as many twos as possible and bring them to Europe to race

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: per mest racing in Belgium and the Netherlands because I mean I did that and it was really

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: eye-opening like you learn so much really quickly it's like being thrown into the

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: wolves it's fantastic it's terrible at the same time and you also get to race with like

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: people you've heard of which is really it's just a really cool experience all around but I feel like

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: America is isolated because we're you know not a part of Europe and it's just so hard to get

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: out of there in the racing world and we've lost now all of our teams that live and race

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: in America all of the UCI teams for women. I think the last one was DNA and they've

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_01]: just announced that they are folding at the end of this season. I can't think of any other

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: UCI team. I know 2024 is listed as UCI but they don't seem to race anywhere but America so I

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01]: feel like in my head that doesn't create a pipeline or at least a pipeline to Europe

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: so how do you get out? How do you get the we're stuck we're trapped like how do you get

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: those opportunities? Yeah one of the things I love about what you've done with this is

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that initial grant that you did was geared towards bringing in the novice level riders

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and then it seems like kind of each year in each iteration of the project

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you're building the next step of the pipeline the next step of the pipeline so every time

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you're building the next step of the pipeline you actually have athletes who either have come

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_00]: up through the pathway that you've built or athletes who are at that level and looking

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: to get to the next level. Right. And I really like this approach it feels very organic

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and compared to other things efforts that I've seen over the years I think other efforts kind

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: of come in and they're like oh we're going to do this one thing and it's going to solve

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: everything it's good you know we're just going to swoop in and do all the things

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and you've taken this really organic and incremental approach was that something that you

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of initially planned in the beginning or is this something that has evolved as you've

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: been building it? I think it happened out of necessity there just weren't there weren't really

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: any women of color black women racing they're they're worth you there were a handful but not

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: nearly enough to like do the things that I wanted to do and like create the programming

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to create and my thing that I always say is that I'd never want to run a team like

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_01]: a team team like I don't I don't want a professional a professional team I'm not trying

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to work to run a UCI team it's not a thing I want to do. My goal is to create

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: pathway for riders to like be seen and hopefully be picked up by other teams

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_01]: which is way harder now that there's none in the U.S. on that level but I think

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in order for people to get to the next level they have to start somewhere and so I had to create

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: the entry point and so the mini grant was literally no experience necessary like can you

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: ride a bike that's it can you ride a bike are you willing to try bike racing and if so yeah

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: let's do this um and quite a few people all can ride a bike and are willing to try bike

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_00]: racing it seems so yeah that's been really great yeah and once you kind of got through that stage

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of it what was the what was the impetus for building the next step in the program

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: well now I've got all these people that I've like suckered into racing bikes and they're

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_01]: like well we want to do more of that what's next um and so we built what's next yeah

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah what do you what do you view as like really differentiating what you're doing

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: with the abundance project versus kind of like other feeder programs that are out there

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think those programs expect you to already have it together for the most part or they have

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a youth program and people age out and they don't know what to do next right yeah there's

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: not there's not really any good pipelines there seems to be some developing for the men

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and there were a few for women before and those have kind of all fizzled out yeah um or mostly

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_01]: fizzled out I guess I don't I can't speak to like every single program in the country

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: because I'm not super aware of them all but it seems like there's just not a lot of

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity for people who want to try who aren't already good at it or who don't have

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: this like attitude in another sport that everyone knows about right it's a hard place

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to be I think if you if you're you know cycling curious and you want to see what it's like to

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: race I remember back when I stopped swimming I so I wasn't swimming I hadn't started cycling

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and I was thinking that bike riding sounded kind of fun and that maybe it'd be fun to

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: dabble in racing I had I actually said out loud to a friend and she kind of looked

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: at me like do you realize how stupid that sounds and it wasn't until I actually said

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00]: out loud to her that I was like oh that doesn't make very much sense does it but

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like I had to be good at racing before I started racing and everyone does not everyone

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: but a lot of people do and yeah it's like and it's so silly when you say it out loud it's

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: like well how do you expect to get good at racing if you don't race and it creates this

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: really like you're just you're stuck like what do you do but I feel like that's the

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: energy in the racing community and then there's also this thing where nobody will ever tell you

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: anything so you just have to figure it out the hard way and I hate that I hate that so much

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was fortunate enough to have people that weren't that way in my life that like held my

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: hand a little bit and told me what I needed to do and let me say stupid things and answered

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: my dumb questions and they encouraged me to keep going when I was just like oh this is

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: fine but I don't think that is like worth my energy and they're like definitely worth your

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: energy just try it just do the thing and sometimes people just need you to remind them that they

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01]: can just do the thing even if they're not excelling at the thing granted I did the thing

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and then I excelled at the thing and then I really wanted to do the thing but how will you

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: ever figure that out if you don't do the thing in the first place yeah and even if you

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_00]: put all the effort in and you don't excel in it it's also possible to have fun at things

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: you're not like amazing at like I think we lose sight of that so I have this like promise to myself

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that I will never race anything other than road really and I've been really bad at like gravel

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and mountain biking for years but that's okay like I'm sure if I got super into it and I

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_01]: decided to race it I could become really great at it but I don't have that desire yeah I

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_00]: started doing a little bit of mountain biking after I retired from road and it was so nice

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_00]: because I had zero expectations of myself because I was like I've never really tried at this I've

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_00]: never learned any of this so it felt like every little thing that I did learn felt like

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_00]: this huge victory and thing to celebrate and it was super motivating and not because I had

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this big aspiration of like becoming a pro mountain biker or something like that it was

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_00]: like oh my gosh just the learning part is fun like yeah I don't need to be good at this for

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_00]: this to be super fun exactly I don't know if I ever want to be good at it and that's okay I

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_00]: can still just have fun in this process and there are women in the abundance project that

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_01]: have no desire to go pro and that's actually fine they just want to race bikes and it's

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_00]: great and they do sometimes what do you do to create that environment right because I think

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_00]: when you have a project like this it might feel intimidating for somebody to come to that and say

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: well I'm really excited to race bikes but I don't want to go pro wouldn't you rather invest in

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody who's going to want to take this thing you know air quotes all the way because I think

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you've accomplished this in an incredible way and I would love to hear more about how you

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00]: think about this because I think people listening to the podcast who are maybe trying to build

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_00]: community where they are or create these kinds of opportunities could really learn from that

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that is such a huge barrier for people I think we really consider how to allocate resources

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: based on what people are trying to do so maybe we allocate a few more resources to somebody who's

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to do more so we allocate the most resources to the very beginner and then the very

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_01]: top and then in the middle it's like okay we will support your desire to continue racing

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but you also have to support yourself in ways and kind of fight your way to the level that is

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_01]: like a cat too because if you can make it to there then that means you've invested something

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of yourself it's not easy so that means you've invested something of yourself to get this far

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we can start allocating more resources into that again but it's I guess it's kind of

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like we trick people into the bike racing by making everything really easy to get in

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_01]: eliminating as many of the barriers as possible and then we're like okay well here's some

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01]: support you can keep racing if it's something that you want to do and we can't do everything

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but we'll do some stuff like for people who've gone through the mini grant we usually

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: provide race entry through our micro grant program and sometimes we'll do food stipend

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_01]: depending on if we can swing it or not we'll do housing for like the bigger races in the country

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_01]: but then for the mini grant and then for the like cat to riders for like specific stage races

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: we'll do everything we do we feed them we help them get there we tote them around while

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01]: they're there and cover the race entries and offer like human support also so it's kind of

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess my answer is allocating the resources based on how invested they see so yeah like if you're

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: willing to try this I'm gonna I'm gonna go in and invest resources towards that that sounds

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_01]: great please try this and see if you like it and if you like it enough to come back then

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll invest some resources into it and then you can invest some resources into it and then

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_01]: together we'll hopefully have enough resources that you can actually race bikes and then once

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you get to a certain level like if that's what you want to do if you want to make see how far you

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: can go then we'll help you as much as we can there too yeah this makes so much sense yeah yeah

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and I can imagine like once you've you know we'll say air quotes tricked somebody into loving

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: bike racing that's what it feels like but we know you just get them in and they're gonna

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: love it um once once they've kind of gone through that initial experience with you through

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_00]: the mini grant with all of that support part of what that support is is teaching them the skills

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and tools that they need to make themselves successful so when they do step into that next

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00]: phase they don't need as much from you and that that really makes sense like even I mean

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_00]: it's sort of like it can sound like a bait and switch but really that early phase is so

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_00]: hard like it takes so much support and learning just to get to the point where you

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: need to do so yeah yeah and then yeah giving people like not giving but but teaching all of

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_00]: those things and empowering them then to come back and embrace this on their own terms I

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_00]: think is so cool and I think that makes a ton of sense how do you when you when you talk

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: about supporting the human side of things and I'm interpreting that to mean like the mental

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and emotional side of things what specifically are you doing with the program to really

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_00]: support people in that way because I think that is such a difficult tricky thing to accomplish

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_00]: when you have all of these other things you know the the fundraising and the logistics

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and all of these other things on your plate what are you doing there that's been so

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_01]: successful so because I wasn't physically present the thing that I could offer with

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_01]: these virtual meetings so before and after every race I would talk to everybody and like

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_01]: go through the courses they'd have their questions and it's much easier to have

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_01]: questions once you've done the thing so the first day is always kind of like

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_01]: me just kind of talking at people but then after it's like okay what about this what

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_01]: about this what about that and then I can answer questions and we can try new things

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and the reason that we usually try like the criterium stage races we'll call them because

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: they're multi-day criteria races you don't have to finish one to keep going like a

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: stage race and you get several opportunities to try and so it seems like a great formula

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: for somebody that's just trying like just starting out like if you race once you're

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just like man I could have done this differently but then you have to wait like a week or two

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_01]: weeks or a month or however long if you're local for your local racing to have another

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01]: race to try something again and then by then you probably lost your nerve you've forgotten

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: everything that happened but if you can just do it back to back to back to back

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_01]: you can grow so much in like three to five days versus just trying it the one time and then

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: like okay that was cool and then never really doing it again which I feel is kind of like

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_01]: what I did I did one race and I was like oh that was fun and then I didn't race

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00]: again for a couple months right I listened to one of your interviews um that you did

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_00]: with your coach and I don't know if you're still working with him but I know that

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00]: in that interview you were describing the process of finding a coach that was a good fit for you

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think sometimes people kind of think like oh I want to find a coach who's gonna

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_00]: they're going to do these things like I want a training plan I want nutrition advice or whatever

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00]: not thinking that they might need to interview for the position right like they might need

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_00]: to interview a few people for the position because not every coach is going to either

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_00]: do the things you need or do those things in the way that you need and I'd love to hear

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_00]: more about what you learn in that process of finding a coach who was a good fit for you

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I had to find coaches who weren't a good fit for me to realize that I needed one

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that was and I'll trial and error yeah and I always view it as it's like one of the most

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_01]: important relationships in your life like I had this really lofty goal and I'm putting my

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in this person's hands like I am asking you to help make me into a professional cyclist

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and both of us know that is not an easy thing to do both know that that's going to be a lot

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of work and and I'm trusting you to point me and like put me on the right path and like

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: keep me on the right path and then there's also you know that self-accountability of like

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you do that part and I'll do my end of like showing up and doing the workouts and you know

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: being open and being honest and if you are working with somebody that you can't talk to

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and can't be open with and can't be honest with about whatever the thing is then that's

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: probably not a good fit like if you're scared of your coach probably probably not a good fit

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it should be more on the side of respect versus fear if this person is yelling at you or

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: belittling you I don't respond well to that I cannot speak for everyone but I don't respond

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: well to that that would I wouldn't last long and I feel like there's a lot of again that

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: human side of this sport where a lot of people just get crushed under the pressure where they're

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: amazing athletes like just fantastic athletes and could probably go super far but they can't

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: keep up with the emotional aspect of it and that part is so tough so if you have this

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: person that's just making you feel small all the time that's not going to work out

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: you're eventually going to crack yeah yeah I I can't agree with that more I think

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of people have had an experience where they were motivated by fear or anger right or you know

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: a desire to prove someone wrong right so somebody belittles them and okay I'm going

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: to get motivated by proving this person wrong and it's not that it's completely ineffective

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: right like it can work but to your point like it's you're you're gonna crack it's

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: gonna wear you down it's not a sustainable thing and it's certainly not in my opinion

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: a path to optimal performance right which is like when you're talking about world tour level like

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what you have to be that's what you have to be doing but I also feel like those

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: pressures are gonna if if that's what you're looking for those pressures are going to be

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: there there's always going to be somebody to prove wrong like go find that somewhere it

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: shouldn't be the person that you're like trusting with your like biggest loftiest goal

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: yes someone will be terrible to you you will find that I'm sorry you don't have to pay somebody

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to do it for no you don't have to pay someone to be terrible to you people will be terrible

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: someone will I promise gosh that's so true what were some of the things I mean so you've given

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: some really great examples of like what doesn't work what were some of the things that you were

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like pleasantly surprised by when you finally found a coach who was a good fit for you

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: patience yeah the thing that I like most about my coach is that he's super super even where I am

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: not like just like super we'll use the word like stable like if if I have if I'm having a crisis

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: if he's having a crisis I don't know about it and that's what I mean I don't I can't can't

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: say that he never has a crisis I wouldn't know but he doesn't bring that into like he doesn't

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: spiral with me I don't need someone to spiral with me I'm already spiraling we need somebody

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that's gonna like hold it down and I remember specifically I've probably already told this

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: story and I don't know because it stands out in my mind but when I did Redlands one year

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: there was the morning of the the oak glen stage where you go up ukaipa

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's a hill climb and so it's a huge massive mountain stage yeah and I couldn't eat anything I

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: couldn't get anything in and I was so frustrated and I was I there's like this area where you

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: park and it's kind of near this like picnic area and I had like kind of gone off by myself

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: to the picnic area and was on the phone with it and I'm just crying and I'm like I like I

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: want this so much but I can't eat anything and there's nothing I can do about it and I

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: know what to do and like I don't know if I should even race today because I didn't need

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: anything and that doesn't sound like the best idea like I don't know what to do like I have

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: no idea and his advice is just start like that's all you need to do you just go to the start

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: line just start the race and if it doesn't work out it doesn't work out and if you need

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to pull out then pull out but just start and I made it through that whole day and then I

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: relieved and also depleted but yeah yeah yeah I mean what a way to just like give you hand

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you like that simple anchor right like right this is where you this is what you need to

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: index on right now like this means so much to me that I'm usually all over the place like

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: now I'm spiraling and this one race is the end of the world if I don't do it it's not

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and if I didn't do it that day it would have been fine like I would have done another race

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: it would have been okay but just start like okay yeah I could do that I can I can

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: patch myself together and get to the start line and I did and so yeah I just I needed somebody

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that wasn't me who could give me direction and I didn't need them to be a therapist

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: but just somebody who could accept that I had human emotions and that was going to be a part

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's been really great about that and bless him for it I feel like personally I feel like

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a lot but he's never made me feel like I'm a lot so I appreciate that that's incredible and

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you made a really good distinction right like your coach is not a therapist and you don't

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: need your coach to be a therapist but you do need your coach to know you well enough

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to understand what you may psychologically need at a race and I'll just say this I've been in

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of therapy over the years still there love my love therapy love a good therapist

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: not not good therapy but with a coach it's so much more tactical it's like do this thing

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and for him to know you well enough to know that in that moment

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you needed to simplify and maybe another athlete would need to like

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: sit down and do some sort of like analysis or talk through some numbers or something like who

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: knows but for you he understood immediately what you needed and to just get straight to that

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and and to make it so concrete right like we don't need to analyze this I don't need to tell

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you like why you're spiraling like we don't need to do any of that it's just it doesn't

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: really matter right yeah yeah I mean it would matter to a therapist but it doesn't have to

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: matter to a coach in that moment no

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah oh that's incredible I love that it's a that's a beautiful story and illustration

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of that process you said the coach athlete relationship is one of the most important

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: relationships in your life and I just I agree with this in my bones I could not agree with

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: this more and I wish more people understood that especially if you're somebody who's pursuing

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: sport you know as a living or as you know kind of like your big life stream

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's worth exploring right to find the right person who's gonna who's gonna work with you

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: on the other hand like so the relationship part is is interesting because

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: it's one of the most important relationships in your life agree 100% it's also really emotional

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and in some ways very intimate but in completely different ways than yeah a romantic

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: relationship boundaries can be tough right yeah yeah and I've had coaching relationships

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: where the boundaries were not the way they should have been and that wasn't a good fit

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: either right yeah because because you have to have some level of intimacy but yeah to your

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: point like if if you don't have the right boundaries in place with that person what was

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: what what was that experience like for you with a coach I feel like because I'm so vocal

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: about a lot of the things in my life that this person felt the need to like

[01:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: coach the whole me and they want it to be a therapist I don't need that

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not what I needed or wanted or asked for or hired them for it um and so

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: alas it did not it did not work out for me in the long run right but I think I needed

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: to experience that to know that that's not what I needed right yeah yeah the other piece

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of this that I think is connected to the relationship and the intimacy component of it

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is that challenge when you find somebody who's not right for you and telling them

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're moving on because it's a weird combination of deep important relationship

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and also working relationship right this is not like no it's a it's very personal in some

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: ways but it is ultimately yeah a professional working relationship so that process of like

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: breaking up with a coach for lack of a better phrase what were some things that you learned

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: about that because you obviously worked with coaches that didn't work for you before you

[01:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: found the coach that did work for you what did you learn about the process of leaving a coach

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not easy um especially like again I'm a big softy and so it I I don't like disappointing

[01:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: people and I feel like if you tell somebody like you're not the person for me is just

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: like any other relationship that probably hurts it probably sucks for that person

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but you got to do both of you the favor of of being honest and open and also sticking

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to it once you've made that decision oh relationships I know so many parallels here

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah it's tough but yeah I mean it also depends on like you know how long you've been working

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: together how close you've gotten like and all of that like maybe it's been a very boundary

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: heavy relationship and then for you they're just an employee to you and then that's easy

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: right it's just like oh I don't need this anymore but again for me I think coaching is or coaches

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: are like super important and so I have I usually bond and so yeah it makes it tough

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah if you were giving any advice to athletes out there who are either

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: working with a coach that maybe they're realizing this conversation might not be a

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: good fit or they're thinking about hiring a coach what advice would you impart to an athlete

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: who's considering working with a coach or considering working with a different coach

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think being really honest with yourself asking the questions that you have like

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I know a lot of people that will like come to me and ask me questions about their coach and

[01:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: like well I think these are questions that you're also asking yourself and questions

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that maybe you need to ask the coach and be honest about how you feel about the answers

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: like if you feel like you need to move on is it are you just being lazy and you don't want to do

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: what they're telling you to do or is it not actually working for you and sometimes you'll

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: get it wrong that is also possible but just trying to be as honest as possible will help

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: alleviate getting that wrong yeah I like that when we're talking about coaches and you're

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: mentioning spiraling and you've brought up anxiety a few times in the conversation as well

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you've been really really open about your experiences with anxiety and specifically

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: neurodivergence obviously these anxiety in particular is not something there where people

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: bring it up and you think like oh this is a real asset but do you think that there are ways

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: in which your anxiety or even neurodivergence have been helpful for you in your career

[01:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: anxiety not so much

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely a troublemaker but I think having my brain operate differently has been an advantage

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in many ways I think my ability to compartmentalize things or analyze things or even

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: like setting goals lofty goals or just not asking the kind of question and going for

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: things are all I think part of having a spicy brain yeah and so I feel like in that way it's

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: definitely been an asset that's huge that's I mean all of the things that you mentioned

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: are pretty like powerful things that are not easy to do and that's that's amazing yeah yeah

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in setting lofty goals um you did you set this big singular goal but obviously along

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: the way you've you've done a lot of different things you've raced multiple seasons you've put

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: together different projects and initiatives how do you set goals for yourself and how has that

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: process of setting goals changed for you over the course of your career not scientific

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: really it's just what I want to do and then if I decide I want to do it how am I

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the moment that they begin if that makes sense yeah so I get ahead of myself a lot

[01:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah but I think that can be really helpful in a lot of ways like

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I always joke with my husband about it but it reminds me

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it reminds me of um what's the Benedict Cumberbatch uh character in the Marvel

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Universe Dr. Strange we call him Mr. Weird because it's funny um but Dr. Strange

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Strange when they're fighting with um Thanos and he's like analyzing all the possibilities

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's like here are all of the possibilities but there's only one in which we win

[01:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's how I feel like my brain works

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that's where I'm like like analyzing all of the trajectories and all of the possible ways

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I can go from where I am to where I want to go and then if I can see if I can see the the line

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and it connects then I'll just try and do it I'll try and do that thing and yeah sometimes

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: you know the best league plans don't always work so there are pivots and things that

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: change along the way but most of my ideas are spur of the moment including like abundance

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: project stuff including like just trying to be a professional cyclist most of this stuff is

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: like oh I think I want to do this now and it's absolutely ridiculous but also amazing right

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: because gosh so many people have incredible ideas right and either don't follow through on it

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: don't have the resources don't have the motivation you know but these you know kind

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: of random ideas that you come up with I won't call them random but you know like oh no they're

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: usually pretty random but you do it right like you you actually do the thing which so much has

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: to come together for that but I don't want that to like go like unmentioned here because I think

[01:15:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that that's just it's truly remarkable you actually do the thing and make the thing into

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: a reality and I think that a lot of ideas don't don't get that honestly no for sure

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think it's not super uncommon with like people with ADHD where you like become obsessed

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: with this one thing the hard part for a lot of us is carry through but that's where I have like

[01:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah friends and people that help me yeah with the follow-through well that's a really great

[01:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: point so how I mean from the outside looking in like it does seem like community has played

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: a really big role in your in your career and you just mentioning that right now

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: how do you kind of pull in support for yourself and what have you learned about doing that

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: abundance project quick brown fox stuff I have a team of dedicated women that like I'll come up

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: with with what seems like a wild idea and they're like all right how are we going to do it and

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: then we map it out and then we get it done um and then you know once I like lose the

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: dopamine to proceed with the goal they're like no you got to do this and this and this and

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I have my friend Devin who works with me Devin Cowans and sometimes it will like have our

[01:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: meetings and while we're in the meeting she'll make me do the things that I need to do

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: she's like all right it's amazing write this email right now like do this thing right now

[01:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and otherwise it won't get done and I'm like you're right it won't get done so we do it in

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the moment and it feels kind of like hand holding but sometimes that's what I need yeah

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and as you know and she knows you well enough to know that and to do it in a way that

[01:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't feel like she's micromanaging you or bullying you in any way like that's that's

[01:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: an incredible support to have yeah but you have to accept certain parts about yourself

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to be okay with that too like there are people in the world where they're like do it right

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: now I'm like who are you why are you telling me this is our relationship and this is how

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: things work for us and so it's okay how did you kind of evolve to a point where

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you knew that this is what you needed to bring these ideas to life like

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: how did you learn that or was that something that you you really knew all along I think

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm usually pretty good at seeing what other people are good at and so with people like

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and um Alexa who helps me like I could see how they were working before they were working with

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: me and I asked them for their help because of how they operated because I could see that

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that was the thing I needed I'm like oh that's what I need I need them so if they

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: ever leave me I'm in big trouble but did you set up a support system for yourself like

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: was cycling in ways but I think my favorite thing like my favorite part of that journey was

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: during the during the pandemic when I decided I was going to get back into racing because

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a whole point where I just stopped riding my bike I wasn't doing anything and

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: then one day I was like all right I'm gonna start running again

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: it was very forced gump but the opposite it's like one day for no reason at all I just

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: started running um but I uh got this opportunity to to be the stage here for the the live racing

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: team and I'm like well I guess I gotta get in shape and we during the pandemic had been doing

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: these like weekly calls of just a bunch of women of color and we were just having these

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: zoom calls because everyone was just having zoom calls we had a virtual pod I guess

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and it continued through 2021 and so we'd be on these zoom calls and I would literally be

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: training like sometimes I'm like jumping around doing strength training in my exercise room

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes I'm on the trainer on so it's like riding my bike but like it was always really

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know it just felt like I had training buddies and like people rooting for me and I

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: think I went from very mediocre fitness to very high fitness in a very short time and

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a really good like end of season that year and I definitely think it was thanks to those

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: zoom calls well with like ADD and like other near diversion things there's this thing called

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: body doubling where you don't necessarily need somebody to like do a thing for you sometimes

[01:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you just need somebody else to be in the room to like yeah be motivated enough to do a thing

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: so my husband and I have this thing where I'm like I want you to come help me do this

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: he's like that is a one person job and I'm like yeah but for me it's a two person job

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and I don't necessarily need you to do it I just need you to be there

[01:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: just come stand here while I do the thing just come like sit in the room and then I can do it

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and I don't know why it works I have no idea and I'm sure somebody does and there's a

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: science behind it but I think the zoom calls were just body doubling and I just had people

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that were there with me and I was doing something completely different but I was doing

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it I was able to do the things that I need to do and I was doing it with really good consistency

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and that was great. That's amazing so the women on the call were they also athletes?

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them everybody was into bikes in some way but I think I was the only one at the time

[01:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that was like racing if I can remember correctly and definitely the only one racing at the level

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that I was racing at. Yeah and what difference did it make for you that they were all women

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: of color? It was just how we formulated the calls I think it started with like my birthday party

[01:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: my zoom I downloaded zoom so I can have a birthday party and then so pandemic and we just kept

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: having yeah well my birthday happened kind of like right at the start because it's April 2nd

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I was like man oh my gosh yeah like I can't do anything I can't go anywhere

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: because we shut down in like March like somewhere in like early in March the country

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the world shut down. Happy birthday Aisha. Yeah and I was like man this sucks.

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like all right well what's this zoom thing all about?

[01:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And now we want nothing to do with it. Oh my gosh. But yeah I think it helped with the

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: conversations it helped with the camaraderie that everyone was a woman of color it felt

[01:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: very like I don't know it just it had an oomph to it that I don't always find in other groups

[01:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was really great. Yeah do you think that's part of what has made the abundance

[01:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: project so successful? For sure I think the thing that I was missing when I was racing was

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that sense of community I felt like there were a few other people of color that were

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: around but there wasn't really like that like support that network that wasn't built

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and so we built that now and it's really cool to see and I love that it like exists without me

[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's my favorite part. Like I don't I'm not a super social person and they're all like

[01:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: mostly really social and so they get to have each other and that's really great.

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah one of the things that you posted on Instagram a while back which just it stood out

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to me when I read it was and this was in your post announcing that you were taking a sabbatical

[01:23:20] [SPEAKER_00]: from racing. I want to find my confidence again I'm not currently the brazenly bold Aisha

[01:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that knew she could achieve the audacious goal of becoming a pro and as tough as it is to

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: admit it's the truth and in that you kind of talked about becoming more stoic and reserved

[01:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: that was specifically in reference to having you know been having to deal with injury and illness

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: for at seven to eight months at that point. I'm curious if that shift in your kind of

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: personality or demeanor that you observed was that more than just the injury and illness?

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that did that have to do with the culture of racing or was it really just the

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that challenge the health challenges that you were encountering? I think it was a combination

[01:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of everything. I think I self-isolated a lot. I think the pressures from being on a World Tour team

[01:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the just frustration of like wanting your body to do things that it just refused to

[01:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: do because of the health and injury and anxiety or whatever it was that week

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It kind of made me kind of lose my oomph and you need oomph to raise spikes.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It's kind of the biggest ingredient. You have to have some level of self-absorption

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to even think that you can do something like that and I felt like that part of me was

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely dwindling away which I did not like was really annoying. Yeah.

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it says a lot about your self-awareness and self-assurance to first of all notice that

[01:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and second of all to share it and do something about it. Really amazing and it does bring up

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: one more point that I want to include before we wrap up which is joy and this is something

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that you've talked about in a lot of different interviews and it kind of seems like what

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you're describing was sort of the dwindling spark of that joy. Is that an accurate way

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of describing it? Yeah, I think so. It's not a very joyful experience.

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Fair. Pretty obvious point here.

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: No. And so I feel like I always say if it's not fun, it's not worth it

[01:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was starting to not be fun anymore. Yeah.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think now I'm realizing that it was more health than anything and that there's a much

[01:25:45] [SPEAKER_01]: bigger problem that I'm still trying to figure out but that uncertainty of like do I just suck

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: is really tough. It's like I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do and it's just not working

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: out but I think that's because something is actually quite wrong and I'm going through the

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of trying to figure out a concrete diagnosis of what that is but not knowing that it just felt

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: like man maybe I just suck. Gosh.

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that and the uncertainty of it too just wears on you, right?

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Well from the outside I look pretty healthy so you can't tell.

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. It's not like an obvious thing. Yeah. So it sucks.

[01:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But it doesn't mean it's not real and it's not there.

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. Yeah.

[01:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a long time since I've seen you in person but I will say all of the times that

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I have encountered you or interacted with you, one of the things I love about you is how fun

[01:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and joyful and silly and goofy you are. So I'm personally really excited to see what comes

[01:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: next for you. I hope that your medical exploration at the moment brings some answers

[01:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: soon, sooner than later. But yeah, even with all of these challenges you have been such an

[01:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: incredible wheel for so many people, myself included. I really appreciate everything that

[01:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you've done for the sport and I'm excited to see you kind of get back, I don't know if it's

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: getting back to you but evolving into the newer healthier version of you.

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that would be great. That sounds like an excellent goal.

[01:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Well Aisha, thank you so much for taking the time with us today. I really appreciate you

[01:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: coming on and going deep on some of this stuff. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

[01:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I've gotten to work with Aisha on several occasions over the years.

[01:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Who she is shines through in everything she does and I'm continually inspired by

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: how unapologetic she is about everything from the challenges she faces with anxiety

[01:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and neurodivergence to her hopes, beliefs and dreams. I love how she takes her work seriously

[01:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: without taking herself too seriously and how she doesn't hesitate to pursue her ideas no

[01:27:57] [SPEAKER_00]: matter how spontaneous or unconventional. We could all use more role models like her.

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us for today's episode. This is an abridged version of the full

[01:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: interview. To get full length and extended versions of each episode, sign up for a

[01:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: membership on Ko-fi. Memberships start as low as $3 a month. Check out all the perks at

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: ko-fi.com slash be a good wheel. That's k-o-f-i dot com slash be a good wheel to sign up.

[01:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: The Be a Good Wheel podcast is produced by our wizard behind the curtain,

[01:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Maxine Filivong. If you loved today's episode, don't forget to rate us five stars.

[01:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Until next time, thanks for listening and thanks for being a good wheel.