Advocacy, Awareness, and Amplifying Others with Kathryn Bertine

[00:00:00] Hey, it's Amber. Before we get started, I want you to know this episode contains references to suicide and depression. So please take that into consideration as you listen. If you want to avoid that part of the conversation, we've provided timestamps in the show notes. If you or someone

[00:00:15] you know is struggling, please reach out for help. Help is available 24 hours a day in English or Spanish via the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Text or call them at 988 in the United States. Again, text or call 988 in the U.S. You can also check findahelpline.com

[00:00:36] to find help where you are. That's findahelpline.com. When you add to that that physical component whereas elite athletes or you know we're trained to tolerate physical pain right like oh it doesn't

[00:00:51] hurt it's not that bad I'm fine you know your limbs might be falling off you know you might have like road rash up and down your body but you're fine you're fine and just a scratch just

[00:01:03] put a scratch I mean that's a wonderful mentality to have when you're out there on race day doing your thing it can help you get to the finish line and I love that but it's also a switch that

[00:01:16] we need to be able to turn off when we're talking about things that are a not race day oriented or be the mental health side of it too like no it's really not okay if you're coming

[00:01:29] apart at the scenes but you're like no no the thread will hold no you know it's okay to sit down and re-stitch and re-thread when necessary but we're still figuring out in our culture how to do

[00:01:43] that and how to be like it's okay we uh just like now you know one of the things that I love is that I think in our modern athletic culture especially with endurance sports

[00:01:53] finally now in our culture it's so acceptable to have rest dates and in training blocks right rest is now finally heralded as such an important part of the training equation because honestly

[00:02:08] if you don't have a rest day you don't recover and then you can't build your next performance so I think we need those mental health rest dates as well and when we can say oh gosh it's too much

[00:02:22] my brain was too tired I need to sit down and you know stop thinking and stop worrying for a time that that needs to be built into our daily lives as well whether or not we're a professional

[00:02:34] athlete but just saying whoa I'm gonna take a mental health day today and do absolutely nothing or knit 10 sweaters if that's what does it for you you know whatever it is that makes you feel relaxed

[00:02:46] and and happy and like you're in a peaceful place that I think we're slowly getting to realize that that's such an important thing to add into our calendars that's Catherine Brutine speaking to the importance of proactively incorporating regular resting recovery not only to balance

[00:03:07] the stress of workouts and training but also to balance the stress we impose on our brains it's easy to forget how much mental energy we expend daily and even easier to discount the signs of mental and emotional fatigue to the detriment of our mental health Catherine however

[00:03:22] has learned to attune to the needs of her brain in ways most folks haven't had to learn in 2016 this author filmmaker and activist had successfully published three books had released an award winning documentary had lobbied one of the richest and most powerful sports organizations

[00:03:38] in the world to include women in the Tour de France for the first time since the 1980s and had just entered her fourth year of racing professionally when she almost died in a race

[00:03:47] in La Paz, Mexico. The crash fractured her skull in two places and she would not have survived had it not been for the determined medics on the scene as she healed she gained new appreciation

[00:03:59] for many things not the least of which was tuning into her brain's needs for occasional rest a perspective from which we can all learn but this wouldn't be her last brush with death as you'll

[00:04:08] soon hear. You're listening to the Be A Good Wheel podcast the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel by digging into scientific research and personal stories about human potential and performance I'm your host Amber Pierce today's guest brings a wealth of multifaceted

[00:04:35] insights from her equally multifaceted experiences Catherine Brutine is many things to many people she's an author athlete activist founder and documentary filmmaker she's also a steadfast friend and dedicated mentor her path to cycling is as non-traditional as they come working as a

[00:04:54] columnist and senior editor for ESPN she took on a project that would change her life in 2006 ESPN tasked Catherine with attempting to qualify for the 2008 summer Olympic Games in Beijing the idea was that she would try different summer sports then pick one and give it her

[00:05:10] best shot at qualifying for the games part of the goal was to demonstrate the incredible level of Olympic athletes and generate content in the build up to the event the Catherine possesses genuine athletic prowess she had previously toured with the ice capades as a professional ice

[00:05:25] skater the subject of her first book all the Sundays yet to come she was also a collegiate rower for her alma mater Colgate University and found remarkable success after casually picking up triathlon for the ESPN project she tried everything from handball to modern pentathlon

[00:05:41] even as a gifted athlete it was a long shot to qualify for the games in two years that was part of the point Catherine approached the endeavor with genuine humility finding she had a real knack for the bike she set her sights on road cycling becoming

[00:05:54] an expert in the rules governing Olympic qualification she applied for citizenship in the island country of St. Kits and Nevis in part to improve her chances of qualification and in part because she had come to understand the unique qualification challenges

[00:06:08] facing smaller countries and wanted to use her visibility to shine a light on those inequities she didn't qualify for the Olympics but she did fall in love with the sport of cycling she respected the heck out of the athletes forging their careers in the sport

[00:06:21] and importantly she came to care deeply about them as she embarked on her own journey into the pro ranks she not only experienced injustices but also had a front row seat similar experiences of other women in the sport she ultimately raised five years as a

[00:06:35] professional cyclist in the world tour pro circuit and she did a lot more than race she became a staunch advocate for athletes and cycling federations representing small countries and more broadly for women cyclists grappling with gross inequality not shy about

[00:06:48] taking action she set her sights on one of the most visible and consequential examples of sexism in the sport the exclusion of women in the Tour de France most of the biggest races in cycling included both men's and women's events much like the Olympics or world championships

[00:07:02] the Tour de France on the other hand is the most visible most lucrative race on the pro calendar and represents the pinnacle of the sport in which at the time women could not participate and could not therefore enjoy the accompanying media exposure and sponsorship opportunities

[00:07:19] back in the 80s the Tour de France did include a women's event so feasibility was clearly not the issue she put together a business plan and emailed it to the race organizers they didn't respond but this is Catherine and she wasn't about to stop there

[00:07:34] determined to shed light on the substantial inequalities in the sport she launched a grassroots fundraising campaign to make a film a first-time filmmaker she documented her persistent efforts with the Tour de France as well as the experiences and resolve of her fellow racers

[00:07:48] including me the result was her award-winning documentary film half the road the passion pitfalls and power of women's professional cycling which debuted in 2014 in 2020 the film was named one of the best cycling films of all time and continues to be screened worldwide Catherine ultimately

[00:08:06] succeeded in petitioning the Tour de France for women's inclusion securing La course by Tour de France in 2014 which became Tour de France FEMS in 2022 she now serves as CEO for the Homestretch Foundation a nonprofit she founded to provide free housing to women athletes struggling with the

[00:08:24] gender pay gap that persists in cycling her latest book is titled stand a memoir on activism a manual for progress what really happens when we stand on the front lines of change the book was a finalist for the indie book awards categories of best memoir and best in

[00:08:38] social change in 2021 in 2022 Bertine was named University of Arizona alumni of the year for her work in Tour de France gender equity her accomplishments are substantial to say the least impressive both in quality and number but as you might guess the path to achieving them

[00:08:57] was anything but easy today Catherine shares her experiences with situational depression the challenges she faced in advocating for change and the power of using her voice and platform to amplify the voices of others who may not have the same opportunities

[00:09:11] she shares how she balances authenticity with influencing change how she inspires like-minded individuals to work together and how she responds when she encounters resistance to change I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did it is my pleasure today to welcome to the

[00:09:27] show Catherine Bertine Catherine welcome to the show Amber thank you for having me on your fantastic podcast I've listened to all the episodes I am honored to be a guest and I'm also honored to be your friend

[00:09:42] I know so full disclosure to folks listening Catherine and I have known each other for a very long time now we go way back and we will get into some of those details in our conversation today

[00:09:55] I also sit on the board of directors for her nonprofit the home stretch foundation so just so that everybody is clear on some of those relationships but I'm really excited to get started

[00:10:09] with you today and talk about gosh there are you know in doing my research for our interview I was really struck by how many really interesting chapters and stories and sub stories and narrative

[00:10:24] arcs there are weaving through your life and it's no wonder to me that you are an author among the many other hats you wear but right now we are recording in May which is mental health

[00:10:37] awareness month and we talk a lot about mindset and the landscapes of our inner worlds on this show which is a conceptual way of thinking about what's in our heads but we also have very literal

[00:10:50] brains in our heads and just a month ago Catherine you celebrated your brain anniversary what is your brain anniversary and why do you celebrate it oh the that's such a great question

[00:11:04] my brain anniversary is technically April 3rd this is going back eight years ago I was in a fight grace bad crash happened and I sustained a really massive tbi to the point where I'm

[00:11:19] very lucky to be here today it was a situation of a twice broken skull and the medic in the caravan was able to control the seizures and basically revive me in the middle of the road

[00:11:32] and I am forever thankful that I am here at all you know let alone the fact that my brain is healed enough to the point that the doctors have given me the okay to say that I'm 99% just as

[00:11:46] weird as I ever was so that's like that's a huge victory right so to think that I'm alive at all and yet just as weird as always is is a great sign so every year I celebrate that and hence the

[00:12:01] brain anniversary and yeah there's still little things that might pop up you know people ask if I still have symptoms but they're very minor and manageable you know very crowded rooms are

[00:12:14] tough for the brain to negotiate sound and sometimes I will make up a word and not realize it until someone's like what did you say let's see if that happens on the podcast that could be very

[00:12:25] entertaining but uh I don't even know you know I'm again just lucky to be here and it gives me this point every year right I can celebrate sticking around that's one yeah that's one

[00:12:39] end of the mental health there are other things we'll dive into I'm sure that you know I celebrate as well for big big time and there was a point where you weren't sure you wanted to stick

[00:12:49] around correct correct so I almost feel like I have two brain adversaries each year the physical and the mental and you're right there was a time in my life we're now going back exactly 10 years so the summer of 2014 and I'm suffering terribly from situational depression

[00:13:10] which will go into more and I didn't want to be here anymore and I'll tell you the whole bad story of that and I had a plan I had an exit plan I was uh not it wasn't even that I was sad

[00:13:24] about life it was that I no longer felt anything and that's a huge indication of depression being at its lowest worst point is when you're no to everything and I was in that zone I was in

[00:13:36] that place and I didn't want to be here I had an exit plan and it was just near distraction that day that caught me off guard in a good way saying wait a minute okay something's really wrong I need help

[00:13:48] and I'm now in a very healthy place where I'm able to look back at that time be like okay if I was able to get through that bout of depression and ask for help if we can help get the message out

[00:14:02] that I can do that anybody can't do that you know even if they don't feel that they're able I'd love to talk more about that point too I think we are slowly chipping away at that stigma of

[00:14:15] mental health and mental uh yeah yeah mental health just as a as a big beautiful term that we're now finally being able to look at one another and say you know but as you know the

[00:14:27] phrase it's okay to not be okay uh and I think that's right that's such a huge advance because you know Amber I know that you and I grew up in a time where depression was either the clinical one

[00:14:39] that you're born with you're born with a chemical imbalance and you have a clinical depression or you are you know manic depressive or bipolar and those are like the only two depressions

[00:14:51] that I think we were taught or aware of when when we were growing up especially as the advent of like tv commercials with uh you know ability and things that and that image of like a

[00:15:02] little dark rain cloud following us around all the time that was the only depression that was out there remember those commercials oh me too it's like cemented in there you know and yeah the good

[00:15:15] part about that was okay at least people are are starting to talk about depression but the bad part of that was that if you didn't fall under that spectrum I'm like well I don't have a rain

[00:15:24] cloud following me around every single day therefore I don't have depression was also something yeah you know I I kind of felt so when I get to that when I got to that point of being so depressed that

[00:15:37] I didn't want to be here anymore part of it was because I couldn't figure out that there were many branches on the tree of depression I didn't know that and so I love

[00:15:46] being able to talk to people about situational depression which happens to so many of us in our lives whether we have a charm for it or not um for me mine was brought on by a divorce that I didn't

[00:15:59] see coming and it was so heavy and so difficult that I didn't realize that things like uh divorce for death of a loved one or going through even a job change that you might not see coming or

[00:16:13] you know losing a job um losing a home anything that's on the spectrum of adulthood things that are difficult those things can trigger situational depression but I didn't know I'd have that name until I finally got around to doing some research on it like oh and situational

[00:16:33] depression is caused by a situation that's incredibly difficult to endure but it also has the ability to pass and that it won't stay with us for the rest of our lives but if we don't know that then situational depression is no different than the deepest darkest stages of

[00:16:51] regular depression and it can you know it can be just as deadly just as impactful so finally being able to give a name to it and then see if anyone else out there might be like oh I can resonate with

[00:17:05] that I went through a really hard time I was really down the you know the bottom of the barrel so to speak then the more we can talk about that so how many times have I said situational

[00:17:15] depression now it's almost like it like I hope no one's using this as a drinking game because they would be far gone but I keep him right home that's just so we remember it but it's important

[00:17:28] right because um if I remember correctly your divorce happened well initiated in 2014 and the clinical term even for situational depression didn't exist at that time until a few years later correct exactly so I was in that proverbial nomads land of something's really wrong

[00:17:52] but I don't know what to call it you know what we don't know what to call it yet so that was I love that it is out there and it's known but it's not yet well known enough

[00:18:04] that people can identify that that's what they might be going through but yeah one of the worst parts about that too sorry go on no no go ahead please oh well one of the toughest parts about that

[00:18:16] particular year for me 2014 was that I had a lot of amazing things going on that was the year that we gained a lot of course right toward a France where women were finally able and included

[00:18:28] in the tour to France fine like something we pushed so long it's so hard for half the road our film on women's pro cycling was out it was released in theaters it was going around the world and it

[00:18:39] was making a big stir so we were so excited about that I had a book that was coming out later that year so I had all of these amazing things happen that we've worked so hard for for so long

[00:18:50] and it's all falling into place and this is when you think that your closest friends and family and married your spouse you know they're all going to be behind me celebrating this incredible

[00:19:01] kind of victorious year within the app yeah the opposite happened and that's when my then husband decided he was gonna you know check out of this marriage and it not just brought everything

[00:19:14] crashing down for me but it divided my life into wearing a mask so you know for the public I was in the media at least the cycling side of media quite a lot that year and I had to be this

[00:19:26] strong confident woman who sounded like she had her shit together you know and then I on the other side of that is the fact that I totally didn't that was unraveling behind seats and wearing a mask

[00:19:42] for at all it's not healthy but when you have to wear a mask for that long it really took a toll and that's what brought on you know the depression to bring me down as pretending that I

[00:19:54] was fine and everything was okay and the opposite was true yeah and I feel like that is almost a skill that we cultivate as athletes because at some point when you're called to perform whether it's

[00:20:10] in a race or in an interview you kind of have to set down anything that's distracting to focus on the task at hand and whether we're intentionally cultivating that skill or not is something that

[00:20:24] we do over and over and get rewarded for and then you have this major yeah go ahead no I agree keep going this might happen a lot folks there is a little bit of latency on the whenever we're

[00:20:41] interviewing and talking across the internet so bear with us with that but you know when we do that as athletes it definitely is something that we get rewarded for and it's almost you know I

[00:20:53] have definitely experienced this in my life where I get this idea that whatever is in front of me it's just another challenge during which I need to rise to the occasion and you know get things done

[00:21:08] get through it and move on to the next challenge but not all challenges are created equal and as much as we believe that we can compartmentalize and set these things down it's kind of a myth because they're there with us whether we want to acknowledge them or not

[00:21:30] agreed and when you add to that that physical component whereas elite athletes or you know we're trained to tolerate physical pain right like oh yeah it doesn't hurt it's not that bad I'm fine

[00:21:45] you know your limbs might be falling off you know you might have like road rash up and down your body but you're fine you're fine and merely a flesh wound just a scratch just put a scratch

[00:21:57] there's nothing I mean that's a wonderful mentality to have when you're out there on race day doing your thing it can help you get to the finish line and I love that but it's also a switch that

[00:22:11] we need to be able to turn off when we're talking about things that are a not race day oriented or b the mental side of it too like no it's really not okay if you're coming apart at the

[00:22:25] seams but you're like no no the thread will hold no you know it's okay to just sit down and restitch and rethread when necessary but we're still figuring out in our culture how to how to do that

[00:22:41] and how to be like it's okay we uh just like now you know one of the things that I love is that I think in our modern athletic culture especially with endurance sports finally now in our

[00:22:52] culture it's so acceptable to have rest dates and in training blocks right and rest is now finally heralded as such an important part of the training equation because honestly if you don't have a rest

[00:23:06] day you don't recover and then you can't build your next you know performance so I think we need those mental health rest dates as well and when we can say oh gosh it's too much my brain was

[00:23:22] too tired I need to sit down and you know stop thinking and stop worrying for a time that that needs to be built into our daily lives as well whether or not we're a professional athlete but

[00:23:34] just saying well I'm gonna take a mental health day today and uh you absolutely nothing or you know knit 10 sweaters if that's what does it for you you know whatever it is that makes you feel

[00:23:47] relaxed and and and happily and like you're in a peaceful place that I think we're slowly getting to realize that that's such an important thing to add into our calendars yeah I think you know

[00:24:01] as athletes we focus so much on the physical and certainly there have been times in my career where I really I thought I was nailing my training plan because I was nailing the training and I was

[00:24:13] nailing my rest days but I was only accounting for the physical training stress when we were building out that training plan and building in those rest days and I wasn't accounting for the mental and emotional stress of everything else that was going on my life and I didn't

[00:24:27] think I had to because I thought I was and could compartmentalize all of that but it did affect me and I think what you're saying is you know is such an important point that

[00:24:42] not only do we need to account for mental and emotional stress in addition to training stress and build in that mental and emotional arrest and recovery the way that we build in physical

[00:24:52] recovery to a training plan but another way of looking at this is in terms of injury you know I think when we get injured as an athlete it's it's easy to think about you know just

[00:25:03] harden up and push through but there you know you can't exactly harden up and push through a broken bone or a tbi but when you are experiencing an injury and I'll call you know depression

[00:25:16] situational depression there are moments in life where we experience what all just referred to as like mental and emotional injury where there's and it can be quite literally physical as well in

[00:25:28] terms of the chemistry of the brain but it's not visible and it's not as concrete as a broken bone you know for broken bone there's a really clear here's an x-ray showing exactly what's

[00:25:40] wrong we know very likely what caused it here's the protocol for healing you know six weeks six to eight weeks in a cast or you know it's so clear cut and concrete and you can get x-rays and you can

[00:25:54] see how it's healing but with injuries that are not visible and I'll just I know this isn't a perfect analogy so forgive forgive that but you know with something like situational depression it is debilitating and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed and treated

[00:26:14] in the same way that you would a broken bone you know obviously with different modalities and different approaches but it's not visible to others so you don't get that sympathy that you

[00:26:24] would if you were walking down the street with a cast on and it's so much less concrete and clear in terms of the road to recovery absolutely I could not agree more and I love you use the

[00:26:39] term compartmentalized right earlier too and saying that that is a term that has very healthy boundaries for certain situations like okay if we are focused on achieving goal a but things from

[00:26:54] you know bc and d in life are popping in you know it's good to compartmentalize for a little bit for a little journey but we have to remember that life is very fluid and all of our personal

[00:27:05] professional everything they do blend together at times and that's normal and if we can compartmentalize things in the short term because we're focused on achieving one goal that's okay but if we try to

[00:27:17] keep compartmentalizing our our sanity you'll be like oh yeah I'm always okay I'm always fine and I'll be depressed when it suits my schedule you know that this depression does not work with

[00:27:32] my schedule right now right I'm gonna put it on a shelf I'll get back to it later but that's not how it works right and I think it's so important to know that when we feel that when we're trying

[00:27:43] to compartmentalize things but it's not working to you know to let it to take it off the shelf and let it do its thing let it breathe you know I use the analogy in stand in the book you

[00:27:56] know saying that we've all got our demons and maybe instead of this phrase of trying to kill our demons you know whether it's depression whether it's anything instead of trying to kill our demons

[00:28:08] let's build a stable and house our demons in this stable and when they come knocking let them run free for a little bit and then put them back in the stable and acknowledge like okay depression okay

[00:28:26] anxiety okay whatever it is that gets you you know say I recognize you're there I'm gonna let you run around the yard for a little bit I'm gonna put you back and that becomes a lot more uh I think

[00:28:38] for me anyway like I'm not a psychologist and this little stable that I have in my mind you know I recognize if that doesn't work for anyone that's fine it works for me you know

[00:28:47] to acknowledge our uh our issues and to let them be rather than try to kill them it takes a little bit of pressure off ourselves of feeling like we need to have the answers and that we're not

[00:29:00] okay if it's not going um we are okay if we put them over in the stable yeah you know it's funny I had a conversation with um one of my swim coaches from my early days in age group swimming and

[00:29:16] I was very fortunate that my coaches at the time were clinical psychologists so they were really up on this stuff and I had this conversation with my coach the clinical psychologist in my late 30s

[00:29:28] so he had known me obviously for a very long time since before I was 10 and we went through some stuff right like so he had really seen me through some very high highs very low lows and in my late 30s

[00:29:41] when we were having this conversation I was talking about my my struggles at the time with anxiety and I still struggle with anxiety I'm not going to pretend that's in the past but

[00:29:51] you made this really great point which was that there's the anxiety and fill in the blank here right depression you know whatever it happens to be there's the anxiety and then there's another there's other layers on top of that there's shame about the anxiety there's judgment about the

[00:30:09] anxiety there's fighting against the anxiety and all of those things take so much cognitive and emotional energy and if you just step back and say okay I've got anxiety and I will probably

[00:30:25] always have anxiety and in the context of this conversation with my coach he was kind of like yeah this was there when you were 10 when you were 20 when you were 30 like this might not be something that's going away which is not necessarily a bad thing and actually

[00:30:40] just stepping back and saying okay accepting it and removing those layers of fighting judging feeling shame already that is such a huge relief such a huge burden lifted that the anxiety itself

[00:30:58] actually kind of feels easy to carry and deal with as in comparison absolutely I it's I love how you freeze it that's so true it is it's part of us and maybe it resurfaces maybe it doesn't

[00:31:13] either way just to acknowledge like okay this is part of my journey and to remind ourselves too that everybody is going to go through something really tough in this life if they haven't already

[00:31:27] and it's you know unless they're a unicorn and I don't know many unicorns that are out there but you know it's really hard to get to your I'm in my late 40s so it's hard to get to your late 40s

[00:31:39] and not have gone through a difficult and dare I say traumatic experience at some point in your life yeah and and to know that like when we look around at friends and at strangers you know everyone's probably been through something really difficult and to have those conversations

[00:32:00] knowing that uh you know we don't have to always ask like oh what have you been through what's your trauma you know but to at least know that if you did bring up that question probably just

[00:32:11] about everybody at the table who's you know 40 plus even 30 plus will probably have something to add to that and to remind us that you know we're not alone on this journey our journey might be

[00:32:23] very specific and might have very detailed answers to what it is we go through what we experience but on the whole like you know we're all going through something or we'll go through something and I

[00:32:37] feel that that's very bonding you know yes every moment you might encounter that personality who uh who wants to play the game of like well my trauma is bigger than your trauma

[00:32:53] yeah I find the best tactic with that is to like kind of nod politely and listen but to know that usually those who play that card are probably not fully healed from their trauma

[00:33:07] um and those who are are a lot more open and understanding and can be like oh here I've been through something along those lines uh but if you have the you know the one upper mentality

[00:33:22] yeah just nod your head and listen if I had sat yeah especially as an athlete you want to be like no my trauma is worse than yours you know but the inner competitor you're in this trauma game

[00:33:38] I would suggest not a day to get that but just you know lending an ear and then uh then letting that one go and knowing that they've got a little bit more

[00:33:47] work to do yeah that's uh yeah that can be helpful too well I want to revisit this idea of like misconceptions around depression a few of them and you pointed one out which is that

[00:33:59] which is situational depression itself um for anyone playing that game at home we're saying it again but the idea that depression can be transient and specifically connected to you know a particular event in life or experience and it's not just something that you're born

[00:34:18] with it's not just you know a permanent chemical imbalance um but you mentioned something else which I thought was important was that preconceived notion of what depression would feel like and I am right there with you you know seeing those pharmaceutical ads back in the day

[00:34:36] in believing that depression was really about just feeling sad all the time just sad and I too have struggled with depression and in your book one thing that really struck me was

[00:34:47] you called it out as the empties and I thought that was such a good way of putting it because it wasn't feeling sad or down in the dumps or anything like that it was a completely devastating

[00:35:02] and consuming sense of like apathy and emptiness and nothing it was it couldn't even feel anything like it would have actually felt good to feel sad at that point because it would have been a

[00:35:13] relief to just feel something was that your experience and how did did you miss that it was depression because you were expecting a different experience yes exactly that I was expecting

[00:35:27] the sad rain cloud and to feel sad that I would always feel sad and down and when I started feeling nothing at all which yes you mentioned you know I refer to that as the empties with a capital

[00:35:41] E you know um yeah because there is nothing there and for me for context I've always been a great feeler of things you know I'm in the creative arts area of life so I have a lot of

[00:35:55] emotion a lot of capacity to feel you know all the emotions that are out there and that's something that I've always used to draw good energy and creativity from so when when I got hit

[00:36:08] by the empties and I felt absolutely nothing good bad sad anything I think that's when I knew that I was at my very very lowest and it couldn't get any worse because I just didn't have new

[00:36:25] capacity to care about anything and um that's that's I think the most dangerous point because if you feel like uh you have nothing to to care about even if you can acknowledge that yes you have friends who love you yes you have family who loves you even with

[00:36:46] that knowing that you're loved and there are people who care and in inside you also know that you care about these people but the empties are so powerful that uh that doesn't matter

[00:36:57] you started thinking like yeah but they'd be better off without me or you have these really horrible thoughts right so you know you're loved but it doesn't matter that's when if

[00:37:07] you ever get to that point the most effective thing you can do is to ask for help um even just saying those words out loud to a person that is safe or trusted for me that was my dad I was able

[00:37:22] to say dad I think I need some help you know and if if you don't feel that you have a person who is that safe or trusted space then uh a couple options are one you could research you know on

[00:37:34] psychology today you can actually plug in your zip code and look for a therapist that fits your zip code yeah and um and almost it's almost like you know like a online dating profile of

[00:37:46] psychologists you can actually read about them so I would encourage anyone to try that you know if they don't feel they have someone see they could say they need help too um and then of course we have

[00:37:57] the number to call now too I hope I don't get this wrong but I believe it's 988 and that's the the helpline just feel that can be your phone call and be like I think I need

[00:38:07] help and it can be enough for the distraction to get you to uh to take that next step but those were definitely the most empowering words for me to to know like okay uh I got nothing left

[00:38:22] so this is my one and then we can talk about the distraction part too which yeah so what was it that brought you to that point of being able to say those words out loud that you need help

[00:38:34] yeah it was a rather incredible experience at the timing of this aligned but I was at my lowest point the the date that I was planning to to end it all and to check out was um August 11th of uh 2014

[00:38:51] and um I'll spare you the long journey of going through this plan but I had a letter written instead of leaving it I was going to mail it right and before I went into town and mailed this letter

[00:39:04] I did one last check on on social media I even put a positive oriented post something about whether it was the tour de France or something positive that you know would kind of throw off

[00:39:15] the track of where I was headed but I opened up social media and news I turned on the internet basically and I saw that robin williams had taken its life um that's when the news got out about

[00:39:29] robin williams and it was a a huge distraction all of a sudden instead of you know closing the internet and my laptop and going on with my plan I was very much in wtf mode I'm like what happened

[00:39:45] how could this most beloved person in our circles of comic energy of feeling good some of you who made us laugh how could this person be so down and devastated that we didn't know about this

[00:39:59] and he took his life and so I wanted to you know I wanted to solve this like what happened what happened and it was enough to throw me off in the in the very best way being like wait a minute

[00:40:11] if robin williams was suffering then maybe I'm not so alone in this suffering and if he's yeah if he's causing this amount of devastation to all of us who loved and adored him

[00:40:24] maybe I need to stop and think for a minute and that's when I went to my dad and so did you I don't know if you heard this news did you hear this news and then I was like dad I

[00:40:34] think I need help and saying those words out loud that's what changed it and I'd forever mark you know the anniversary of his passing as something that actually saved my life wow it was

[00:40:46] profound in in so many ways I mean Amber you and I we grew up with you know robin williams comedy on so many levels movies oh yeah shows to more community you know everything like he was so

[00:40:59] ingrained in my life so and he was such a cycling advocate so even in a you know there was like the film and the movie part of him but then there was also this beloved human who loved bicycles and I

[00:41:11] think you and I both met him on occasions because of you know are just crossing paths in the cycling community yes and to take it even one step more personal too we have been making half the road

[00:41:23] film on women's cycling and I reached out to his agent to see if we could hire him to do a narration for the film and he was he was working on another project if not like five million projects

[00:41:37] right but he was already fully engrossed in his next project but what I love is that he responded he didn't just have his agent say like no I'm busy you know he he expressed his best wishes

[00:41:51] and saying like I wish I could be part of this I'm currently just both solid but you know I wish you all the best on it still oh and that of course you know when it's your one of your heroes in life

[00:42:04] when you get a response like that yeah they he was excited to watch it in the future like that was just like it was amazing so I felt that I had that you know connection and yeah we and of course

[00:42:16] I reached out to him not just because he's awesome but because of his cycle connection and yeah how much you loved the sport how much you loved bikes so yeah that was that delivered

[00:42:28] in head hold so many ways yeah just just a few minutes ago you were talking about the depression you described it as an inability to care and it's so beautiful that your connection with him sparked just in that instant suddenly there was something that you cared about

[00:42:48] right absolutely hearing that news like you cared about you know even if it was just solving the mystery of why we would do this which is kind of ironic because you were in the exact same headspace yes it is yeah it's so it's it's ironic it's it's

[00:43:04] weird you know let's let's call it like it's crazy that all transpired on that day oh yeah but it's it is it's good to kind of have a chuckle about it too and be like oh my god

[00:43:15] you know that's that's pretty intense on a lot of levels but they also say to them being the experts in mental health that one of the biggest things that acts as a defense mechanism against

[00:43:29] suicide is very simply quite distraction if we can distract somebody from that moment it's and it's it's all that it takes it's enough to stop it from happening that day okay and that that was huge so that was a monumental thing and to know that distraction is important

[00:43:48] and you know if we ever have the ability to distract somebody who's that low and that down and struggling with the empties that that can be a pretty powerful moment yeah sometimes it's

[00:44:00] just about okay distract through this day and then the next day and then the next day and sometimes it's it really is just about getting through one day at a time but before you know

[00:44:10] you've put together weeks and months and years and you know like you said if it's if it is a situational depression there's a light at the other side of that there is there's absolutely like

[00:44:22] there has been so much joy and amazingness that has come through this past decade I mean we're coming up on the you know 10-year mark I know I'm just like oh my gosh I've

[00:44:37] been so fortunate to have so so much goodness come my way in this past decade but I'll also say struggle too you know I'm it's very important that we make sure people know that if they get

[00:44:50] through their their situational depression it doesn't mean that life isn't going to throw you more hurdles and more challenges that come up but it does mean that if you can get through

[00:45:00] that bout of of depression and understand where it came from what it's about it'll be that much more helpful when you go through the other life challenges that come our way you know this I mean

[00:45:11] you know I lost my dad during the pandemic and it was like oh my god like am I strong enough to handle this challenge of grief and but you know and during that before that we made posters

[00:45:24] foundation that was one of the greatest joys of of my life there were relationships ups and downs so a lot of stuff happened so it's not like we're totally immune once we go through and heal from

[00:45:38] one depression but I do think we're definitely better equipped to make the next round of choices I think that there's something to be said for you know moving in from that space of not being

[00:45:48] able to care not being able to feel being able to care and feel on any level even if it isn't you know the real positive joyful emotions it can be a relief just to feel sad even just to have a

[00:46:02] feeling and having been through that experience I don't know if this is a case for you just for me at this point I can now I feel familiar now with those red flags like oh I've been down this path

[00:46:17] before I know where this leads and every time that happens and I ask for help sooner and sooner it becomes easier and easier to see the signs and get help to avoid going all the way down that path

[00:46:31] which you know we know where it leads and it's not it's not a great place and getting past you know the situational depression you make a really good point it's not going to be

[00:46:42] rainbows and puffy clouds and that's not the point the point is to feel to feel engaged in life you know whatever it may bring I could not agree more it's so important to be like

[00:46:55] yay feeling yeah it's not like when we're having a really sad day and we're like moping around I definitely in the moment you're not like oh I'm so glad I feel sad you know it doesn't quite work that way but it definitely when you are in a healthier

[00:47:12] mental headspace you are able to be like oh you know what I had a really crap day yesterday or really crap week but yeah okay I got through it and therefore yes I recognize that having very

[00:47:24] normal life feelings and ups and downs and happy and sad that's so much better than feeling nothing yeah at all for sure and even just to to feel grounded in the transience of those emotions

[00:47:37] right like whatever it is that I'm feeling I know it's going to pass like this you know this negative feeling whatever it is it's not going to last forever there will be something

[00:47:45] that comes after this and I know that I can I can surf that wave whatever it is is it's kind of a superpower it is and I love that you bring up surfing the waves because

[00:47:56] waves of I'm gonna use the term grief but waves of grief depression sadness that's exactly what they are their waves and if we can be like oh here comes a wave I'm in the waves but I

[00:48:08] brought my surfboard I'm on the wave you know it's freeing to know that this wave will come it'll hit and it'll roll through and when we can acknowledge the waves after we are already

[00:48:21] happy game yeah so true yeah and and to not fight the wave you know like you said like grab the surfboard and you're not you know under that wave struggling against it because I mean let's be

[00:48:32] honest like that's not a fight you're gonna win yeah but to roll with it you know it just it doesn't make the grief less it doesn't make the sadness less it doesn't but it's a little bit easier than fighting it it's a little bit easier and sometimes

[00:48:48] that makes all the difference it's so true it's so true and yeah I mean you know if you've ever been rolled by a wave like swimming in the ocean or playing around you're like oh yeah

[00:48:59] that's not fun I would rather not be in this wave but that's also nature that's what happens that's what it does to to recognize that for sure is a huge huge thing I you know and to sometimes give acknowledgement too to what type of wave that you're in

[00:49:17] are you in a depression because of something that has happened in any spectrum you know whether it's again family stuff home life work life you know acknowledge the type of wave that's got you

[00:49:28] down and it's rolling you right now and remind yourself like that's normal if you're in the grief wave because somebody that you love has passed you know to acknowledge that too is is very

[00:49:41] very normal to you know to have these waves kind of hits you and to adjust to that new spectrum of like what is life going to be like now that this this person might not be around you know

[00:49:52] these are all so normal areas of of grief of depression of the waves that hit us through life and just to keep reminding yourself like okay this is normal it's normal not to yeah it's

[00:50:07] normal here comes the wave take cover or surfboard however you want to approach it for sure yeah we've been friends for a long time so there are countless things that I appreciate about you

[00:50:20] so and I can't I couldn't even begin to name them all in one podcast episode but one of the things that I really appreciate is how open and vulnerable you've been not only about your mental

[00:50:34] health and tbi but your whole story I mean Catherine has literally written books about her life and her life experiences the most recent one being stand and stand was kind of a next level

[00:50:50] vulnerability and openness and honesty about your experience in the title of the book is stand what really happens when we stand on the front lines of change and it is if you want to hear

[00:51:02] more about the stories that we're talking about right now absolutely go grab that book there's so much more in that book too and it it goes back to kind of what happens to the whole human

[00:51:13] being who is standing up in front of those microphones standing up to the powers that be to affect change through advocacy and we talk to a lot of leaders we look up to people who are

[00:51:26] very inspirational figures and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that they too are human beings with struggles and lives that we may never see and Catherine does a beautiful job of weaving

[00:51:41] together all of these narrative arcs in this book and and giving us like a very just a really beautiful glimpse at what that was like for her so and I'm speaking about you in the third person

[00:51:53] now but I'm still here speaking to the audience here yeah I'm still here um but uh I want to talk a little bit about that advocacy and one of the things that came up in the book which

[00:52:06] I thought was just a really and I know like you mentioned it at one point in the book but it's definitely something that I I know that you've dealt with a few times which is there were times

[00:52:18] where for lack of a better word you get reprimanded for making key stakeholders uncomfortable or for publicly voicing your opinion in a way that's going to make people uncomfortable when that discomfort might jeopardize the change that you were hoping to affect

[00:52:38] and that creates a really tricky balance to strike right like how do you embrace your authenticity and your voice at the same time as continue to influence for the change that you want to see

[00:52:53] happen when using your voice is making the powers that be really uncomfortable I want to ask do you approach this tension differently now than when you did 10 years ago oh it's such a great question

[00:53:06] Amber I think that uh you know if we dare to step on to that uh the front lines of change right if we want to fight if we want to fight for something to change that you know when we

[00:53:16] look around society and say hey that doesn't seem right that doesn't seem up to par it's not equal like I want to make change I think the biggest thing to know is that if you know if we do step

[00:53:26] on to that front lines for something that we love and care so deeply about it will blur the line of our public in our personal lives um I think when I first started this journey about wanting

[00:53:38] to get women back into the tour de France and I'll come back to that why why would say back into the France uh but the short story being like there was a women's tour in the 80s even

[00:53:47] in the 50s and then women were banned from the tour de France so we wanted them to return to the race which seems so it seemed like an obvious yeah obvious in this day and age why are we not

[00:54:00] investing in the women's side of the sport um so in my head part of that is that it was it seems so clear cut and that uh everybody would be on board with this like why not you

[00:54:13] know rising tide lifts all boats when we add women we will not just um amplify the women's side of the sport but we'll also lift them inside of the sport surely everybody will understand this

[00:54:24] so what was mind blowing to me was how many how much pushback we got how many people didn't understand and it really boiled down to the fact that you know to put it in a very quick one

[00:54:35] sentence nutshell change scares the crap out of people and the fact that you know we were simply trying to create benevolent change uh didn't register as much as like oh change

[00:54:49] scary you know to to the powers that be so I very much started this uh this journey this fight thinking that it would be a common sense thing and it would happen very quickly and all parties

[00:55:04] would agree uh and I had no idea how much of my personal life would be affected by standing up and changing the world so much so that it became a 400 page book you know there's so many instances

[00:55:19] along the way but to kind of circle back to your question of um you know now the way that I look at the world if I see some areas of inequity that still need to be solved I have a much bigger

[00:55:30] understanding that it's going to take time that it's going to um ruffle the feathers of of tradition and of course for me the number one rule that I know already from learning this experience firsthand is that change happens when we band together with like-minded individuals so we

[00:55:48] don't have to bear the breadth of this journey alone that's when the magic happens that's when everything truly comes together so I know if I'm gonna saddle up on the uh the

[00:56:00] horse of equality again that I'm gonna make sure I have um you know stable full of horses and people you know uh this is different than the demon stable just to let you know I've got a few

[00:56:13] different stables going on up there sometimes I get confused which stable I'm in but that's the tbi talk yeah that's the t-right exactly she's some of the stables um but it's it's definitely something I've learned uh unfortunately the hard way but also very

[00:56:32] thankfully the hard way that you know there are many facets to creating change and I now feel like I have a better plan in play but I also write about this the end of stand is really

[00:56:44] you know an index of if anyone else wants to try to create change in their neck of the woods what they believe in um there's a bit of a glossary there to to highlight you know do these things

[00:56:56] don't do these things and I what I'm hopeful and part of really why I wanted to write stand was less about my journey but more about how my journey could potentially help others who want to

[00:57:08] bridge that equality gap or that changemaking gap and I love that I've seen some evidence of people who are using that uh that story and the appendix at the end of the book to you know to help

[00:57:21] them with with their journey as well that gives me a lot of a lot of happy feels oh it's so cool because when you read the book you get to follow your journey of encountering these challenges

[00:57:34] problem solving figuring things out so that by the time you get to that part of the book which is sort of like an activism playbook like you know here's the playbook if you

[00:57:42] want to get started you have all this beautiful context of okay how did you how did you arrive at these lessons learned and it creates so much depth and context to it it's if you haven't read

[00:57:54] this book anybody listening I highly highly recommend it not just because Catherine is my friend but it is objectively an excellent book it's it's funny it's sad it's uplifting um it's just super

[00:58:05] honest and beautiful but I think that yeah I I love that you want to use your experience in your stories to help empower others and I think there have been times in your journey and you write

[00:58:23] about this in the book as well how that people really misunderstand your motivations and assume that you're out to you know make a name for yourself or you know put yourself in the spotlight

[00:58:37] and I've I've personally known you long enough to know that that is absolutely not the case and that if you didn't have to be the person out there in the spotlight and you could achieve the same

[00:58:46] thing you absolutely would and I want to point out one thing that I noticed as an athlete when you were doing this work was you were often in a position to be able to speak publicly on things

[00:59:00] that other athletes couldn't so one of the things was when when Catherine was racing and I I mentioned this in the introduction she was representing St. Kidd's Anivas and a lot of

[00:59:13] the women that she was racing with were representing the United States and so as an athlete representing the United States I was beholden to the USA Cycling Federation and oftentimes in my team

[00:59:27] contracts you know even if it wasn't you know a USA Cycling contract even if it was a professional team contract there would be language in that contract curtailing my ability to speak my mind

[00:59:37] publicly on social media if I had a negative opinion about a sponsor or you know some staff on the team so as professional athletes you know we're hustling really hard and we are scraping

[00:59:51] by to get that next contract so we don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize that next contract because this is our big dream you know we want to you know make the Olympic team we

[01:00:01] want to go to the world championships we want to do these big things and we have to get that next contract in order to make those dreams come true so in many ways we aren't able to

[01:00:10] say the things that we would like to say and advocate in the ways we'd like to but you were in this really unique position to be able to give voice to what a lot of women wanted to

[01:00:20] say and felt like they couldn't. Oh thank you thank you well it took both aspects so I was in this very very unique position where and I'll give you the short story because a long one is in the

[01:00:32] other book but you know a short story is as I'm a dual citizen of St. Kitts and Nevis and so I chose to raise for St. Kitts and Nevis during my entire amateur and professional cycling career

[01:00:46] and just as you mentioned because I had that leverage then to be able to speak a little bit more freely than athletes who are under their bigger and quote-unquote more powerful national

[01:00:57] banner you know I was like oh I can use this I also was at that time a journalist for ESPN so I had access to giving more visibility to cycling and you know right and so I would I write

[01:01:12] about all of the other athletes in the sport and that's when I knew I had some leverage I was like ooh we could make a film we can make a film about the the highs and the lows the passion the pitfalls

[01:01:23] you know and the power of women's pro cycling so I pitched this documentary idea to ESPN and my boss there a female boss shot it down saying oh well does anyone watch women cycling

[01:01:38] switch I responded no because there's no way for them to see it we don't have any film but you're ESPN we can change that so that yes people can watch women cycling and she still was like no I

[01:01:52] don't think so and that's what flipped that switch for me of being like okay you know what I can make this film myself which is this very scary thing to say out loud when you've never made a

[01:02:01] film and you have no idea if you actually can't do this but I at least knew enough and like okay but we hire the right team you know cinematographers videographers editors I do know at

[01:02:12] least I can write I can string together a sentence or two enough to have it at least be coherent and also I have access to all the amazing women like yourself and you know all the incredible women

[01:02:23] who are saying at the top of their don't you get bashful I mean you're amazing and you also play such a pivotal role and I need your listeners to know this

[01:02:34] you were so kind and welcoming to me and here I am this athlete trying to get to the programs who's racing for St. Kitts in Nevis I was on the older end of the spectrum of this time where

[01:02:45] you know people were not getting contracts in their 30s and 40s but I'm you know trying to do all this and you were so kind and gracious and just a benevolent soul right from the beginning

[01:02:57] and had you not been had you been like oh no don't bother you know this is a waste of time or if you have been mean or nasty that could have changed so much for me and you and I both know there are

[01:03:09] women at the sport who do unfortunately have that mentality very few but there are a few if you meet somebody who's mean or nasty then that could have affected my decision to kind of

[01:03:19] keep going forward but I was like no I want to be able to highlight women like Amber women like Lauren Hall you know Dotsy Bash like our people in the sport who were just you know

[01:03:32] incredible humans on and off the bike so because when I came to you and our other compatriots and women's pro-psychics like saying hey I have the ability to make a film will you be part of it

[01:03:45] the fact that you all said yes is why this film happened if you all had been like no weirdo I don't know what you're talking about you know then we wouldn't have had any traction so it's very

[01:03:56] much a mutual benefit that you all were kind enough to entertain this weirdo over here and say I'll be part of this film and that's where all the magic truly truly happened and I think one of the

[01:04:10] the biggest things that came from that or the biggest thing thing that came from that film is that when I had access to all of these women and I would ask the question do you want to

[01:04:19] race to tour de France do you want to be part of you know make and every single woman said yes every now and then we get a track cyclist who was like no I don't want to race to tour de France

[01:04:30] that's too long but they also understood they're like but we want you to race at least yeah so we had a so they were on our side um in the best way and that's when I knew we had the real

[01:04:41] traction to move forward because now I'm like okay I might not be a national or world champion I might not be an Olympian but I know those who are and if they're willing to band together then

[01:04:52] we can make change happen to tour de France so that's where everything truly came together and it changed and we formed the tour entier the pressure group to make the tour de France

[01:05:04] happen for women again and we won that and that was an amazing part of the journey but the the real nugget here of creating change is that um I first tried doing this by myself reaching

[01:05:15] out to ASO saying hey we need a women's tour and I've heard crickets and then I was like okay let's make a film let's make a mission let's make something that that people can see and connect to

[01:05:27] that's when I knew we had real power and that's what flipped it in our favor but interesting to go back to you know the side of there being forces behind seats that don't want you to succeed

[01:05:39] I experienced that a director on my team was like you need to stop talking about this equality stuff and she fully thought that I was making a film about myself like that I was doing all this like

[01:05:51] selfie style and I kept saying no no no that's not it you know you'll see me pop up a couple of times but this film is not about me it's so hard to get someone on your side when they

[01:06:02] can't see the end product of the vision that's in your head yeah yeah I met a lot of strife that way from a couple key players but I'm so thankful that the majority of the women and men

[01:06:16] trusted the vision and things change when we had enough footage to actually put out a trailer of you and you're in the trailer you know you got it you all of you fabulous listeners

[01:06:29] be a good meal you got to go check out both the trailer and the film so that you can see Amber lending her beautiful voice and face to this movement and this mission and it's out there

[01:06:41] it's on all the streaming platforms and this is right I'd be careful like I don't want you to watch a movie about me I want you to move watch a movie you know shifted the paradigm for

[01:06:50] women's cycling so I'm so thankful and you were part of that thank you likewise I thank you for saying thank you and I mean to me it was like the most obvious thing in the world but

[01:07:03] like I so appreciate what you did for all of us and I think this goes back to what you said about balancing the way to address that tension is not alone and you know gathering people and

[01:07:18] and bringing them to support the cause and you did that in so many ways not only because you were in a position to say the things that couldn't be said right you were in that position so

[01:07:30] I do think that a lot of time a lot of the time when people confuse your motivation and think oh Catherine was making this film about herself or she's you know self-promoting it wasn't that

[01:07:41] you were self-promoting it was just you stood in in the moments when no one else could because other people had too much more to risk more to lose than you did and you were willing to put what

[01:07:55] you had to lose on the line so that these you know these voices could be heard if not directly from the people who would want to voice them but through you and I think that's such a beautiful thing and

[01:08:09] by doing that by recognizing that there was this critical mass of support for change and assuming that role yourself which came at a major personal cost right I mean with a lot of

[01:08:24] good things too but you stepped into that role so that there could be a clear rallying cry there could be a central focus we'll hear more from Catherine after this quick break we want to make

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[01:09:04] slash be a good wheel and now back to our conversation with author athlete activist founder and documentary filmmaker Catherine Brattine I know that a lot of this evolved organically and

[01:09:19] it wasn't like this master plan that you had from day one but it is such a beautiful example of how you can be one person and gather together just this huge number of people to support something

[01:09:33] and and I think a lot of us get stuck in thinking I'm only one person but you're not you're not just one person and all it takes is one person to say the thing out loud

[01:09:44] and realize how many other people will you know rally at your side to help I'm so glad oh my gosh thank you okay now I'm getting all back full inside but no thank you for bringing up the most

[01:09:57] important part of stand and the film and all of the traction that we've gained and made the fact of the matter is we are all capable of creating change we do not have to be famous

[01:10:10] wealthy olympic champions we can create change from exactly where we are and who we are and I always you know my running joke is I'm like yeah if I was able to create change at the tour de France

[01:10:25] from an apartment in Tucson Arizona then you all can do anything you know and it's so true my role my greatest role was the fact that what I do very well is I'm a good organizer I can

[01:10:39] organize and that might sound like people are like oh you mean you can like rearrange your closet like no actually I can't do that very well but the organizational power that I've had

[01:10:49] is to gather who's good at what and bring them together right so you know when we think about the four women who comprise the tour on t8 the big mission to get women to the tour de France it was

[01:11:04] mariana voss the greatest of all time in women's cycling and the poolie go olympic medalist and world champion christy wellington over on the triathlon side also four-time world champion and then there's me right so I I was able to reach out to these amazing women because they also

[01:11:22] wanted to be part of this change but I was they were the superstars and I was the space dust but you know someone's got to drive this bus of progress and I'm like okay I'll drive the bus

[01:11:35] but they can be superstars and I think that's uh so important you know and again I didn't know any of these women personally they were not close friends of mine but I did have the power to reach

[01:11:47] out and ask westerns and that's part of the organizers role you know so yeah I think anybody who might be feeling like oh well you know I'm not a millionaire I don't have a huge social media presence I'm not

[01:12:00] famous what can I do a lot you can do a lot because I I did it's so can you and as long as you in fact I think it's very important to have that that perspective then you know if you're doing

[01:12:14] it for stardom I don't suggest activism is your game but if you're doing it to truly create an effect change that will last in this world whether or not you're here like that's the big thing

[01:12:29] to to to kind of say yeah I want to make change happen because this is something I believe in then that's the right call to activism whether or not your name is attached to it

[01:12:39] that part needs to be secondary and then you know that you're on track for sure you bring up a really good point too that you're joking right but serious that if you can do it anyone can

[01:12:51] and that sounds self-deprecating but it really isn't and I know you so I know that this is just like a very honest thing that you want to get across and I think it's a really powerful

[01:13:00] point and that is that I know at least for myself when I started racing I too had big ideas for you know what I wanted women's sport to be and the change that I would like to try to make myself

[01:13:18] but in my head I had this idea that I had to get certain results okay if I could win this race if I could go to the Olympics if I could become a world champion then the world would give me

[01:13:31] the credibility and influence I would need to make that change and what I learned the hard way is number one it doesn't matter how good you are that influence and empowerment always comes from

[01:13:45] within yes like the world doesn't hand it to you and the other thing is you can create that without the results you can create that anywhere you don't need the Olympics to have a platform it

[01:13:58] doesn't hurt but you don't need it and that's one of the things you know and I don't I don't mean this to belittle your professional career or results or anything like that but to say that

[01:14:12] you can you know I mean I never made it to the Olympics either so here we are but you don't need that to build a platform for yourself you don't need that to affect real meaningful

[01:14:24] change in the world and I just I it's a beautiful message that really comes through in the book and in your story oh thank you Amber and I so appreciate that and in fact it was actually

[01:14:36] not making it to the Olympics that got us this women's sport of France because I was able to see like wait if I didn't make it to the games why was that and it wasn't just the fact that there

[01:14:49] were athletes who are stronger and faster than me but I actually got this close look at the qualification procedure for the Olympics and how smaller nations don't have the same opportunities how the women's races are fewer and farther between qualifying for the games like there were so

[01:15:05] many inequities along the way that had opened that door for me I'm like okay if it's if getting to the Olympics is not an equal platform worldwide in cycling then what else is wrong with this sport

[01:15:17] and yeah yeah that's where the door was open to me on the fact that we didn't have women at the tour de France etc so it's interesting that what could have been seen as a quote unquote failure of

[01:15:28] not getting to the games actually became a huge success in getting women to the tour de France and of course you never know this at the start right you don't know anything right I'm going into it

[01:15:40] you know this is all in hindsight but I think that's so important too that if we uh if we don't make a certain goal that we've set for ourselves athletically or otherwise you know what did

[01:15:53] we learn not just about ourselves but about the way that the world works during that journey yeah and did it potentially turn our attention to something new that you know could give us a really

[01:16:06] amazing platform for doing whatever the next thing is and that's kind of what happened during this this crazy cycling journey that I had no idea you know would would turn out or play out this way

[01:16:17] and now here I am looking back on what is hang on I'm doing math this will take a second I've been in the sport of cycling 18 years roughly from from the amateur side to the professional

[01:16:33] side to the retirement side and all the activism stuff in between and I'm finally now like able to look at this and say that the the greatest thing that's come from all of us yes the

[01:16:45] change making that's up there but the lifelong contacts and friendships that I have made through this sport make everything all of the struggles worth the journey like the fact that I have bonded for life with certain people because of of what this sport has done me is

[01:17:04] the most powerful amazing thing so you know if someone's ever like yeah it sounds like I'm gonna take it to the games I'm like oh yeah that doesn't matter like that's that's small

[01:17:14] right yes you know you know not that it doesn't matter at all but the the things that really stay with you are those relationships I couldn't agree more well let's dig in a little bit to the

[01:17:27] to the behind the scenes of the tour entier because as the organizer as the person you know you well first of all the focus on the Tour de France I just want to highlight that for a

[01:17:38] moment and why that's so important the Tour de France in the sport of cycling is the premier marquee event of all cycling events it is far more well known lucrative impactful than the Olympics or the world championships in in the sport of cycling and the fact that

[01:18:00] it's a men's been a men's only event for a long time and it wasn't always a men's only event meant that women didn't have the opportunity to access that visibility to showcase their

[01:18:14] athleticism and what they can do on a bike in the same way that men could and that that lack of opportunity actually had really just massive consequences for funding in the sport and you get into the cycle of okay well there's not enough funding to get you know

[01:18:30] women cycling on TV well if we're not on TV then we can't get the exposure we need to get the funding and you end up in this vicious cycle and the Tour de France is a really really key piece in all of

[01:18:41] that so Catherine so truly identified this as a lever right a really powerful lever that she could she could leverage in building a path toward more equity in the sport for women how

[01:19:02] how did you decide on the group of four like how did you decide to reach out to to Mariana Voss Emma Pooley and Chrissy Wellington I think Chrissy Wellington is such an interesting pick

[01:19:12] too because she's a triathlete yeah so as a triathlete she wouldn't be racing the Tour de France even if this is successful so tell me a little bit about as the organizer what were you thinking

[01:19:22] when you put this group together yeah I love that question and I love this part of the journey it was really really fun so the the first part being that when we were making Half the Road and I was able

[01:19:34] to interview all these amazing women of who those three were part of the film I asked each you know do you want to go to the Tour de France and it was very obvious to me that Mariana Voss had

[01:19:46] to be part of this because she was and still is but at that time she was definitely the the highest ranking cyclist in women's cycling that we had right and possibly greatest living cyclist of all

[01:19:59] time I personally agree with that yes yes yeah yeah and um but it was Emma Pooley after I interviewed her she and I connected when I reached out to her saying hey listen I'm thinking of you know

[01:20:13] kind of starting uh something to really gain traction for this Tour de France I don't know if it's a petition I don't know what we do but really want to make something happen and she had been thinking

[01:20:22] the same thing so we were both on that mental side of like okay and I said well let's let's also bring in Mariana Voss and reach out to her and Mariana was in and then Chrissy I had overlapped

[01:20:35] not only I've written articles about her for ESTM but she and I were on a bike tour together and so you know I had direct access to her and it said yeah and it was actually Chrissy you know we

[01:20:47] were calling and chatting one day she's like so what are you working on like well you know there's this Tour de France saying I'd like to see happen and she's like oh I want in I want to be part

[01:20:56] of that she's like I don't want to reset but I want to be you know part of the the mission for this so I was like okay now we've got a team of power players and I also remember

[01:21:08] everything about particular time actually because I had seen other examples of groups they get together to try to effect change but they're too big and it's too many cooks in the kitchen

[01:21:18] and so yeah you know we we've had few in even in women's cycling like that's all banned together and fight for change but if it's so many people all at once it can have the exact opposite effect

[01:21:30] you know we lose focus or we don't we don't streamline that properly so it's like okay I think the four of us would be great but then we can always bring in some auxiliary members who might be

[01:21:40] going out of certain area like publicity or you know etc so so it was the four of us that were like okay we're gonna do this and we're going this was Emma's idea and I agree with her on this she said

[01:21:52] if we're trying to make change happen in France we need to give the French name so that traction happens there and she said let's call it the Tour on TA which is French for the whole tour

[01:22:03] as in women belong at the whole tour right it's like oh okay yes so we decided now we're going back by the way this is all happening in like late 2012 early 2013 and we decide that launching a petition

[01:22:19] is the best way to go change.org we're still relatively new I've been around for a few years it was relatively new and we also knew that we needed more it couldn't just be a petition

[01:22:31] but we needed a website a manifesto if you will explaining it all because when all of the internet people would be like well what about this what about that would we want to spend our entire day on

[01:22:42] Twitter and Facebook you know or would we want to be able to say read here what it's all about and of course my previous email yes exactly exactly oh my gosh but we had to think along

[01:22:56] those lines too what if we get traction in the press let's give them a place where they can go as opposed to just to gather all the info so we did that we knew that and we went through many many

[01:23:07] drafts of what would become our website our mission statement everything and then we did so many drafts of the actual change.org petition as well and we made the plan that we would announce or release this petition during middle of July 2020 sorry the middle of July 2013

[01:23:28] during the meds tour to France because if it's going to gain traction let's you know put this out maybe disrupt the cycle a little bit strike while the iron is hot strike in the iron exactly and

[01:23:39] so what's funny is that you know and I was keeping track of change.org petitions I was like oh this would be really successful what if we get like a few hundred signatures maybe even a thousand

[01:23:52] you know then this could do something and I remember to launching this petition you know one person's name goes on the top of the petition so that was my name that was going on even though

[01:24:03] I was representing the entire group of us and the other thing was there was this tiny little box that you could check that said you know if you want anyone who signs this petition an

[01:24:13] email will then go to your intended target of this petition and of course that was ASO the parent company of the tour to France you know so I checked yes and I you know put in the email address for

[01:24:27] Christian Prudhomme and so here I am like oh wait wait wait wait pause who's Christian Prudhomme for our listeners sorry so sorry Christian Prudhomme is the head of ASO he is the one who puts on

[01:24:38] the tour to France he's the point person um you could say the big boss the big boss the race director you know the one who tour to France goes through basically so I kept thinking like what

[01:24:50] would be great maybe he'll get a couple hundred emails in a thin box we're gonna make change happen well we launched that petition and the most amazing beautiful thing happened it went viral

[01:25:04] in its day and age and we got almost a hundred thousand signatures which is beyond the norm for now change that org is different it's a little easier to sign click and share but back then a hundred thousand launched us into the top three petitions of the year

[01:25:24] that's a lot of emails that's a lot of emails that's a very cluttered inbox yeah guess who wasn't too happy with me about that yeah oh man Christian was stuff in nightmares right oh totally and not

[01:25:37] only is that happening but it's happening during the tour to France that is in bars just getting stuff and there was wonderful thing was the media took you know and I think that's the most important

[01:25:48] aspect you know if you want to create change be ready and willing and able and very friendly and talking with journalists because they're your most valid ally in this whole fight so

[01:25:59] boy did things erupt and blow up in the best possible way and like change that org was calling they trans they translated the petition into um team different languages and then we're getting

[01:26:09] media calls from like BBC CNN NHK Japan you know across the world all of the major news hubs were coming and you know and I was fielding the majority of that because it was my name at

[01:26:20] the top though I was always very very careful to make sure that people knew this was a team effort this wasn't yes I might have been the organizer and the main cog in this wheel

[01:26:29] but none of that would have happened without Emma, Chrissy, Mary Ann and everybody to sign up to check so um always make sure that that they were very recognizably attached and I loved it sometimes it would happen you know like the British papers would be like Emma, Chrissy,

[01:26:44] Mary Ann and some lady we don't know in Tucson you know because they were all the superstars you know and then some rando over there in the desert so uh but it worked and it happened and

[01:26:58] then the media when they got involved of course they went right to Grudon and saying are we going to talk about this are you going to talk to the women of L'Otto yet that was the goal of the

[01:27:07] petition was have a sit-down meeting I think it's very important for people if they're going to make change that they understand that the wrong way to make change is to say hey

[01:27:17] this thing over here it's unequal you better change it the right way to go about making change is saying hey this thing over here is unequal let's sit down together and build a platform to create

[01:27:28] change together to actually be part of that you know don't put the onus on them to do something no come in with a game plan and make sure that that plan is attainable and that you are also

[01:27:38] going to invest to work on that so that was our mission with the petition was we want to sit down with you in France and talk about the best strategic way to go about getting women back

[01:27:49] to the tour we want to work with you not dump this in your lap right so you you move them from a position of being adversaries to a position of being collaborators yes and of course they're

[01:28:03] like we do not want to collaborate with you sorry I had to throw the accent in there which is terrible but I had to you know this is great it's also slightly ironic but in a

[01:28:17] wonderful way that um my last name Bertine it actually is French I come from the French lineage so yeah I'm like maybe they'll see that favorably they didn't give a rat's ass about that but

[01:28:30] let me throw the accent around but we basically you know we finally got to them where they did not respond to the media but they reached out to our point person in terms of the

[01:28:42] communication saying okay we will meet with you in France but you cannot tell anybody about this and so when they say meet with you meet with the four of you that comprise the tour on ta

[01:28:54] absolutely the four of us and then we also had some auxiliary members who came in when they were helped to set up meetings yeah it was so amazing but this was going so this

[01:29:04] is you know in July somewhere in August they reached out to us and we said my meeting for October 1st which was like basically the day after world championships which was happening that year

[01:29:15] in Florence Italy which so wonderfully Marianna Voss won and then she got in her family caravan I got on a midnight train and we drove slash train from um you know from Florence to Paris

[01:29:33] to have this meeting Emma took the the channel over from England or Chrissy did I mean we got there in secret but they were so policing our social media to make sure we didn't say anything about

[01:29:43] this meeting oh yeah I remember the day of the meeting um I put out this very anonymous tweet saying interesting things are happening today and they reached out to like take that down like Kevin take down the tree I know it's like it's gonna be sunny later

[01:30:04] yeah they didn't care they would take that down I was like all right you know but that's how how policing they were about the whole situation but from the meeting what ended up happening was

[01:30:17] they said okay let's do this let's make a tour de France happen for women again keep an eye on this it's October of 2013 and they're like let's do it we can make something

[01:30:28] happen in 2014 and of course our mission was always from the get go we want the same distance the same dates as the men and they said well we can do one day next year to just test the

[01:30:40] waters to see if anyone will watch we're like great we've got our foot in the door one day it is but I've said but to make this race sustainable to watch it road you need to add three

[01:30:50] to five days each year right you know to build on your one day they're like yeah yeah okay but let's just get this one day we don't know if anyone will watch and we're all like everyone's

[01:30:59] gonna watch we promise your cycling fans I said I can tell you that a hundred thousand people are gonna watch because they all sign the petition right you have the petition in your

[01:31:07] hand right there exactly and all of the donors who made half the road the film a reality they're all gonna watch you know 16 countries don't need to have the road half the slip between

[01:31:20] men and women so you're off to a great start but we're going to get it even bigger so for the rest of the winter and spring we created Lock Horse by Tour de France and that's what's really huge

[01:31:34] is that it wasn't just Lock Horse it was Lock Horse by Tour de France we finally had naming rights back to this race that once upon a time ASO said you may not use the name Tour de

[01:31:46] France you know when they took it away when they took the tour away in 1989 and the women were like well we'll just make our own yeah from you know that they're like we'll make our own Tour de France

[01:31:55] and ASO back then said no you don't have access to the name Tour de France you can't have it that's ours right so they really effectively banned women from ever using the name Tour de France

[01:32:03] so for us to create Lock Horse by Tour de France you know 20 plus years 30 30 years later they were like that that was the biggest victory that we had and you know it was incredible I got to stand on

[01:32:19] the start line of my dreams that year that's a full other chapter and episode but to be there and to race it with Marianne Voss and Emma Pooley were both there Christy was there cheering

[01:32:30] from the sidelines being part of the event but the three of us were there with our respective teams and then of course for you know the the golden moment Marianne Voss won yeah so that was huge

[01:32:45] you know and our dear friend the encouragement was on the podium third so it was just so cool that it all transpired oh and the upside was that the viewership came in and everybody watched you know something like 126 countries and 56 different networks broadcast Lock Horse and

[01:33:07] it turned a pretty penny up in terms of sponsorship toward ASO so that was great and so we were like okay next year we got to add on you know a few more days and they're like this was so successful

[01:33:19] we're doing it again we've already signed you'll do one day next year yeah I'm like oh my god okay so long story short the great part is Lock Horse by Toyota France ran for eight years sometimes

[01:33:30] it was one day sometimes it was two days it it was in the mountains it was in Paris it shifted around we kept the pressure on that like okay now that we've proven that one day is successful over eight

[01:33:41] years we need this to grow and so after eight years of the race being one day and luckily the media was so on our side they're like okay enough of this one day stuff we really need to see change

[01:33:54] happen and it wasn't like it was just my voice anymore or the tour entier's voice it was the media it was all the current athletes you know like we need this race to grow and Zwift stepped up

[01:34:05] and they became a title sponsor of what would go from Lock Horse by Toyota France was renamed Toyota France them and it became an eight day race and we have now had that in the running for what

[01:34:19] will become the third year this uh this August so huge progress huge progress and I always use this junction to say like we collectively need to be very thankful for this progress however

[01:34:33] it's not equal yet and um it's eight days whereas the men still have 21 days the women have shorter distances than the men largely due to the fact that ASO just doesn't believe that

[01:34:47] women can effectively do the same distance and a lot of people will say yeah but you know what actually the women's races are a lot more exciting when they're a little bit shorter

[01:34:55] it's more active and I'm like I totally agree so like why don't we make the men's race shorter too you know they did that one year and I'm blanking on which year it was but there was a

[01:35:04] year where they added in a few shorter stages to the tour and people loved them and they were all they were so shocked wow these these stages were so much more exciting and dynamic and

[01:35:18] it's because you know when the when the distance is a little bit shorter and most women's races are shorter than the men's you actually can physiologically put in more attacks and have more dynamism and be less concerned about conserving energy in the race and oftentimes the really

[01:35:36] really long stages I mean the distances sound really impressive but when you actually look at the race dynamics and the tactics that are playing out the racers themselves have to be more conservative to account for the longer distances even the men and so when they shorten

[01:35:51] the distances it makes for these much more dynamic and exciting races and it was so funny to see everyone excited about the shorter distances for the men and we're over here going like hey that's

[01:36:02] kind of like our whole sport over here yeah two days and watch watch the women take ass at this slightly shorter distance yeah well I mean the name of the show is the the be a good wheel

[01:36:17] podcast and in so many ways Catherine you've been not only a good wheel for me and I thank you for that but also a good wheel for all of the women and and then coming up through the homestretch foundation

[01:36:30] and all of the women in sport who you know will feel the impact of the change that you've been able to affect with the aso and the tour de France and as we know that is a huge ripple effect I

[01:36:43] mean that journey is ongoing obviously but it's already had such a huge impact and we'll continue to have that kind of impact so thank you for being a good wheel to me and for so many others oh my

[01:36:54] goodness Amber the pleasure is mine thank you for being an amazing wheel and for being the good wheel that leads us to the right wheels for all of us like I remember when you were talking about

[01:37:05] the concept of be a good meal way before the podcast became this amazing reality and I'm just so proud and honored to know you and and for preaching the good wheel and putting that

[01:37:16] into the universe because it's so important that we all learn how to be a good wheel so thank you for all that you do well I thank you and um with that I'll say thank you so much for joining

[01:37:26] us on the show today and we will hope to have you on again in the future because actually before we go what is on the horizon for you I know I know there's got to be some some kind of

[01:37:38] a project in the works that hasn't maybe been announced yet or what can we tease right now oh okay a little quick tease I promise it'll be a short answer because I hope we can talk about it and

[01:37:48] longer for us you know a couple years from now it's actually out I am working on a new book it's the journey of high pointing of going to the highest point in each state it was a

[01:37:59] journey that I started with my dad during his lifetime and continued after he passed and again it won't it's not really about the mountains but about the journey that that's how we go on in this life and I'm so excited to teach people about high pointing I'm currently

[01:38:16] writing this book so you know this won't be out for another couple years and I look forward to telling you more about this when when it is out and oh my gosh if time flies as fast as it

[01:38:29] has been it'll feel like we'll talk again tomorrow absolutely yeah so just so everybody knows high pointing is hiking to the highest point in every state in the United States so do I have that correct

[01:38:40] you do you do thank you for clarifying that it's hiking to the highest point now sometimes sometimes that's a sidewalk like in Delaware or a field in Florida or maybe it's Denali and Alaska so you know the high points can be anywhere from sidewalks to mountains and

[01:38:59] it's a thing you can look it up at the High Pointers Organization I now happen to be a board member because I love this group so much of course you are and I can't wait to tell you all

[01:39:10] it's so great I can't wait to actually part the big soul of this book we'll be talking about the High Pointers Organization how did all start what is its journey so stay tuned for lots of

[01:39:23] fun stories within the story well I got to join Catherine on one of her high point adventures I was eight months pregnant I was huge and we hiked all of 10 minutes to the high point in Rhode Island

[01:39:36] that's right Geronethill Rhode Island you and Berkeley in Udder Oak she is no high pointer as well it was such an amazing day oh that was so much fun and we brought we brought that high point to Victoria

[01:39:52] standing we stood at the high points of Rhode Island it was I can't wait to that's going to get a very special shout out and I'm so thankful you're a part of that journey well thank you

[01:40:02] so much Catherine it's been an absolute pleasure and really looking forward to speaking to you again at some point on the show thank you for all you do Amber bye everyone one of the things I admire

[01:40:15] about Catherine is how at every step of her journey she did what she could with what she had she never waited until she had a bigger platform better results more money or had met some other

[01:40:26] made-up criteria before she started doing something about the problems she witnessed nope she leveraged what she had for the benefit of others she didn't wait to land a deal with a production company to start making her documentary she raised the money herself from countless individual donations

[01:40:42] and did the thing she didn't wait until she had a formal introduction to ASO she made a business plan and emailed it to them but that didn't work she started a petition while our conversation

[01:40:53] today covered a lot of ground I hope you're left with this conviction you don't have to be anything more than you are now you don't have to have anything more than you have now

[01:41:04] to start doing the thing that you see needs to be done what have you been reluctant to begin what assumptions have stood in your way and how could you begin right now

[01:41:16] just as you are who could you rally to join you whether it's organizing a new group ride or fighting for equality you really can do something right now and your efforts really can make a difference thank you for joining us for today's episode if you love today's show

[01:41:34] remember to subscribe and leave us a five star review the be a good wheel podcast is produced by our wizard behind the curtain Maxine filivan find all published episodes and sign up for

[01:41:44] a newsletter at be a good wheel dot com so you can also listen wherever you get your podcasts support for the show comes entirely from listeners like you sign up on kofi to get extended guest

[01:41:54] interviews bonus episodes official be a good wheel merch and more go to kofi.com slash be a good wheel and help us keep the show going that's kofi ko-fi.com slash be a good wheel until next time thanks for listening and thanks for being a good wheel