Adventure, Reflection, and Connecting through the Outdoors with Devin Cowens

[00:00:00] One of the things in starting this that was always in my mind, what does it look like for someone who's interested in this thing to do it and have it fit into their life?

[00:00:08] So that means removing the barrier of like, you need to take vacation to do this, right?

[00:00:15] Bikepacking had this season where it was really sexy.

[00:00:17] And it's like, we're doing these epic trips.

[00:00:19] You've got these epic bikes with these epic bags.

[00:00:21] And it's like, I can go from my house with my bike, with a backpack to my friend's house and camp in the yard.

[00:00:27] And that's bikepacking, right? To the way to be this thing.

[00:00:30] And so it meant like having it be maybe like one night on a weekend near home.

[00:00:36] The second piece is like the type of bike you have now.

[00:00:40] Most people who are just bikepacking already have some sort of bike.

[00:00:42] So that meant like what trails are available?

[00:00:44] Like what do we have in town that you can get to without having to adjust the bike?

[00:00:48] And then the bags, the camping gear, all of that.

[00:00:51] And so really looking to figure out how to remove kind of those barriers.

[00:00:56] I think the gear library has been really special because people will come and they're like, I didn't think I could do this thing.

[00:01:05] And then I got the stuff and then I did this thing and it was fun.

[00:01:10] It's like, and it's not like 15 year olds.

[00:01:12] I mean, the youth are cool, but like, it's like grown people with jobs and responsibility and lives who are like, oh, I did this thing.

[00:01:21] Like, I remember my partner came on one of our trips and she was like, I've wanted to do this, but I didn't have the bridge.

[00:01:30] No one could carry me over the bridge to like have the experience.

[00:01:34] And then she didn't.

[00:01:35] She's like, okay, I could do this again.

[00:01:36] And then you see it.

[00:01:37] And that feeling of like, I think empowerment is overused, but there's something to be said about this opportunity to see a thing that you want to do that you think you can't do and then to do it.

[00:01:51] That's cyclist, community organizer, and founder, Devin Cowens, describing her approach to creating opportunities for people to experience the joy of bikepacking.

[00:02:01] Devin founded the Radical Adventure Riders Atlanta Chapter, a cycling community for trans men and women, cis women, non-binary individuals, and gender expansive folks of all experience and skill levels.

[00:02:11] In our conversation, she shares not only what, but how she thinks about building community and scaling a community-focused organization, including lessons she's learned from the bike and surprisingly, birding.

[00:02:28] You're listening to the Be a Good Wheel podcast, the show where we explore what it means to be a good wheel by digging into scientific research and personal stories about human potential and performance.

[00:02:39] I'm your host, Amber Pierce.

[00:02:46] Devin Cowens is a passionate cyclist and the founder and co-chapter manager for the Radical Adventure Riders Atlanta.

[00:02:53] Radical Adventure Riders is a movement toward gender inclusivity and racial equity in cycling and the outdoors.

[00:02:59] Radical Adventure Riders, or RAR, has 20 chapters across the U.S. and Australia.

[00:03:03] Devin launched the Atlanta Chapter, or RAR ATL, in 2019, and it has grown into a full leadership team of volunteers.

[00:03:11] Adventure cycling involves riding over long distances and often involves camping overnight or bikepacking.

[00:03:17] In other words, taking all of your clothing, food, and camping gear with you on your bike.

[00:03:22] It requires different skills and gear than other disciplines, which can be a barrier to entry for a lot of people.

[00:03:27] RAR ATL has put together community and programming around lowering or eliminating barriers for people to get to experience and get into adventure riding, including a gear library.

[00:03:37] They host bike camping trips, open shops, happy hours, rides, education, training, and provide gear and resources for all femme, transgender, women, and non-binary folks interested in building community on bikes.

[00:03:49] Devin herself is a genuine force for joy and good on the bike.

[00:03:53] I've had the pleasure of meeting her in person at Bike Clinics.

[00:03:56] She's a connector, community organizer, earth steward, and event planner.

[00:03:59] She's a consummate athlete and embodies the joy of movement in the outdoors that she shares with so many people, focusing on increasing access, training, education, and support in the outdoors for Black, Indigenous, and people of color.

[00:04:11] Last year alone, she did the 280-mile backpacking race at the East Texas Showdown, raced crits at Tour of American Steriland,

[00:04:20] rode 205 miles of gravel at the Kings Road Coast-to-Coast ride, and rode the 444 miles that make up the Natchez Trace.

[00:04:27] As if that weren't enough, this year she did the Mid-South Gravel Double, a 50k run on rolling dirt roads the day before a 100-mile bike ride on the same rolling dirt roads.

[00:04:37] She holds a degree in psychology from Wake Forest University and describes herself as a connector, an apt description and skill for her work as an event planner.

[00:04:46] She's worked with the Atlanta Bicycle Coalition and East Coast Greenway.

[00:04:50] Currently, Devon directs events for the Children and Nature Network and provides behind-the-scenes support for A Quick Brown Fox,

[00:04:56] including initiatives like The Abundance Project that aim to get more women of color on bikes.

[00:05:01] Whether she's managing RAR ATL's growth, creating more equitable opportunities in the cycling world, or simply spreading bike joy,

[00:05:08] she does it all with a big heart and a deep understanding of the human spirit.

[00:05:11] I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

[00:05:15] Welcome to the show, Devon. Thank you for joining us today.

[00:05:18] Thank you for having me. It's so exciting.

[00:05:22] I want to start, I usually start with a lot of my guests asking how they got into cycling,

[00:05:28] but in an interview you did with Outside Magazine, you make a really great point, which is,

[00:05:33] I biked as a kid, but I think the cycling story is always, how did you get back?

[00:05:38] And I love that because I think that's so accurate for so many people.

[00:05:43] So I'm going to rephrase the question for you. How did you get back to cycling?

[00:05:49] So I was, after college, I lived in LA for a year. I thought it'd be really cool.

[00:05:55] And I bought a cheap bike and would bike to the beach every weekend because it was nearby and I didn't own a car.

[00:06:01] And it's one of those beach cruisers. And I decided after that year, I wanted to move to DC.

[00:06:08] And my brother was a bike mechanic in Jimmy John's delivery person and was building single speed bikes.

[00:06:15] And so I was like, I'm going to go to DC at the end of the car, but I want to bike around.

[00:06:19] So I had my brother build me a bike, I flew to Chicago, picked it up.

[00:06:22] I assembled it in the airport single speed. So it took 10 minutes. I put the wheels back on and then took it on the train.

[00:06:32] Had you ever assembled a bike before that?

[00:06:33] I didn't know. I mean, there was some instruction, but it was very, very simple, right?

[00:06:39] Which in hindsight, it's like, I should ride a single speed again, but my knees.

[00:06:43] Yes. And so I put it together, put it on the metro and was bike commuting in DC for the next five years.

[00:06:49] And it just became like my ticket to get everywhere.

[00:06:53] I remember, I don't do this now, but it's in my, gosh, mid to late twenties.

[00:06:59] And I would go to like three parties a night because I was on my bike and I would just like cruise through the city.

[00:07:03] And I had big FOMO back then.

[00:07:05] And so I could just like hop to any place and it was, I felt so invincible.

[00:07:10] It was the coolest time in my life.

[00:07:11] I still think I'm cool, but just being able to like cycle, no gears, zip through the city really quickly was really exhilarating for my twenties.

[00:07:21] So yeah, the formative bike years, it's interesting now to be so far away from that time-wise and to still be finding joy on the bike.

[00:07:30] Because I, you know, it was a means to get around, right?

[00:07:32] But still thrilling.

[00:07:34] So yeah, it was, gosh, that was like, I think 2011, 2012.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:39] Yeah.

[00:07:40] So how, how do those, like those early sensations of like when you were getting back to the bike compared to some of the sensations of being on the bike that you remember as a kid?

[00:07:50] Yeah. So growing up, we used to play this game in the neighborhood called City Hall.

[00:07:56] I don't know why it was called that.

[00:07:57] We worked at a bank and we were like, you know, giving out money and like buying houses.

[00:08:02] And you know, in hindsight, pretending to be adults and playing this game feels dumb, but because not my adult and it's not fun.

[00:08:09] But there was this freedom to it.

[00:08:10] You know, like I could, my mom knew where I was, but I could still get around.

[00:08:14] We stayed in the neighborhood.

[00:08:14] I wasn't biking on the street.

[00:08:16] You know, we were just making between our homes like a few block radius, but it was just, this is my time to do whatever I want.

[00:08:21] As long as we were in before the sun went down, we were good.

[00:08:24] And I think being in DC at that time, just being in control of where I went, being able to meet all my needs on the bike and not have to rely on anyone felt really special.

[00:08:34] I think now I have more responsibilities than I did then.

[00:08:37] And I still find freedom on the bike, right?

[00:08:40] I still get that sensation, but it's more like, oh, I cleared that rock garden on a mountain bike, right?

[00:08:45] It's less like, you know, I still feel that freedom when riding, but it's just different than I was because there were so many like things.

[00:08:51] And then DC was kind of the first time I was like out queer and like a big city, you know, living on my own, having a job, paying real bills, right?

[00:09:00] My time in LA, I was doing AmeriCorps.

[00:09:02] So I was on like a limited income.

[00:09:04] So DC was like the first big girl job, right?

[00:09:07] I love it.

[00:09:08] The magic just, it's incredible how the magic of the bike can span such a long period of life and so many iterations of our different selves too, right?

[00:09:18] Like, it's awesome.

[00:09:19] Absolutely.

[00:09:20] Absolutely.

[00:09:21] So coming up more to present day and speaking of kids and outdoors, how did you come to work with the Children in Nature Network?

[00:09:30] Yeah.

[00:09:30] So I started working with them in January.

[00:09:33] Prior to that, I lived in DC for five years.

[00:09:38] I've been in Atlanta now for 10 and I moved here in 2015 and had always been outside.

[00:09:46] Like it was outside riding bikes, you know, hanging out with friends, but I really wasn't like connecting with nature in the same ways that I do now.

[00:09:53] I'm like an avid birder and like to hike and just made a plant nerd.

[00:09:58] But I was really looking to fuse together my interest in love for the outdoors and nature, but also my skill set in event planning.

[00:10:06] I'm an event planner by trade.

[00:10:08] And I was working at the Atlanta Botanical Garden doing some event planning and fundraising and children in nature posted this job and 10 people sent it to me.

[00:10:17] They were like, this is perfect for you.

[00:10:19] It's like similar.

[00:10:20] I'm glad I have people close to me that know me.

[00:10:23] My first friend who said it was Rachel Oldsler, who is a dear friend and lives in Bentonville and is a cyclist.

[00:10:28] And it was like, you should apply for this.

[00:10:30] And it just sort of was an integral fit.

[00:10:33] And I knew a couple of folks who worked there and connected, but it essentially allowed me to take my interest in expanding outdoors, connecting people, creating inclusive spaces and communities with event planning skills.

[00:10:46] And it's been six months and I have to say it's been wonderful.

[00:10:51] And I'm learning a lot and have an opportunity to add value and insight to the work that they do around event planning around increasing equity in outdoors, with children and families.

[00:10:59] I have not worked with kids a ton in my career, some with like after school programming, but I've now come to learn that there's a big part of me that's interested in environmental education.

[00:11:11] And I can work with kids, I think, like in the dirt and the soil, which is something that I've done a little bit of, but want to do more.

[00:11:18] So, yeah, it's been a journey.

[00:11:20] I was joking with a friend recently who was sort of talking about doing events and figuring stuff out.

[00:11:26] And I think she's 26 or something.

[00:11:28] And she was like, I don't know, I think I need more time working to figure out my career plan.

[00:11:30] And I was like, I've had tons of jobs and been in tons of different alleys and avenues in the workforce.

[00:11:36] And I'm 38 and I'm finding this thing that I love finally.

[00:11:39] And like, it's bringing other stuff that I love.

[00:11:42] So just kind of acknowledging that this is a new chapter and path that I'm enjoying.

[00:11:46] And it's opening up all these other kind of wild, exciting things for me.

[00:11:50] So I'm super excited to be working there and also just have an opportunity to be engaging with folks who are also working in that arena.

[00:11:57] Yeah. It's amazing how sometimes coming into a new situation like that, it opens doors and opportunities that wouldn't even have been on your radar or wouldn't have been something that you imagined for yourself.

[00:12:09] Cycling, honestly, was that for me too.

[00:12:10] Like, if you had asked me in high school or college what I wanted to do for a living, like, it never would have had anything to do with cycling.

[00:12:17] Like, it was not even on my mental map, right?

[00:12:20] A thousand percent.

[00:12:21] It's fun because I think sometimes it can feel overwhelming, this idea that you need to have some idea of what you want to do, even like directionally.

[00:12:32] But also, it's important to remember that, yeah, you can get into something and be really surprised by even an entire new direction that you didn't even know existed.

[00:12:42] Yeah, the fact that we expect people to go to college at 18 and then decide a major two years later is completely ridiculous.

[00:12:49] I should have taken a gap year.

[00:12:51] I studied psychology, which was great because I'm interested in people and it's fine and it worked out.

[00:12:55] But, like, I need to be in high school, live a little for four years and then go to college.

[00:13:00] And I was fortunate.

[00:13:01] My parents were like, people finish in Florida, you can take as long as you need.

[00:13:06] And I did.

[00:13:06] It's just the idea that you're like 18 and you're like, I'm going to be a doctor.

[00:13:10] That is great for those people, but it's just not.

[00:13:13] It's so hard.

[00:13:14] And, you know, I think the education system is an interesting one in our country.

[00:13:18] But, yeah, I just, you know, I love that I'm this age and I can still be in awe of things and learn things and experience joy in this real new and different way.

[00:13:28] And it's like, you know, learning new stuff as an adult that I may never be good at is really cool, right?

[00:13:34] Like climbing, I like climbing.

[00:13:36] Never going to be great at that.

[00:13:37] But it's, you know, so I think just having that experience in adulthood is really, really cool.

[00:13:43] I wish I had the opportunity to take a gap here, but it wasn't on the cards.

[00:13:48] But, yeah, I think for you to have the career you've had and to not have even head cycling on your radar as, you know, a youth is wild, right?

[00:13:57] Like, fascinating.

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:58] I like what you said about being this age and getting into things where it's not you're not getting into it because you want to be good at it necessarily or that that's like the expectation, but that you can just be into something that's fun because it's fun.

[00:14:15] And it doesn't matter whether you're good at it or not.

[00:14:17] Like you might be or you might not be, but I was talking to a, this is really random, but somebody I know played basketball in high school.

[00:14:26] And she just said this offhand comment in the middle of an unrelated conversation, which was, well, you know, I was never going to go pro.

[00:14:32] So I stopped playing when I went to college.

[00:14:34] And I just thought, wait, what?

[00:14:38] You loved basketball.

[00:14:40] And because you weren't going to go pro, you stop.

[00:14:42] Whatever happened to just doing things because we enjoy them, especially when it comes to hobbies like that.

[00:14:49] Absolutely.

[00:14:50] I had a friend, I made some comment about wanting to gotten into birding and I was like, oh, I should do a master prepping program, like be certified.

[00:14:58] And she was like, why?

[00:15:01] Like, can't you just love birding?

[00:15:02] And I was just like, what?

[00:15:03] And she kind of challenged that.

[00:15:05] And then we have this conversation where it's like, yes, we can do this thing, these things and be new at them and like keep doing it and just stay at that beginner or whatever.

[00:15:15] But it doesn't have to be this thing where we're constantly, you know, it's very American, I think, to like always want to be like certified and continue to like build and ladder.

[00:15:23] And it's like, you know, I'm just going to learn the birds in my backyard and keep learning and use my tools.

[00:15:29] And like, that's it.

[00:15:30] And I could be like a birder and just leave it there.

[00:15:33] Right.

[00:15:34] It's not in my nature to do that.

[00:15:36] And I'm my therapist was like, you are very goal oriented, like in every way, which is hilarious to me.

[00:15:42] But that's how I am.

[00:15:44] I'm like, OK, well, I'm birding now.

[00:15:45] It's been two years.

[00:15:46] I now need to be a master birder.

[00:15:48] What is the goal?

[00:15:49] You know, and that plays into also me, like always doing the most of that.

[00:15:53] That's another conversation.

[00:15:54] But yeah, it's just like, can I just enjoy these things for the love of it and stay where I'm at?

[00:16:01] Right.

[00:16:01] It doesn't not everything, you know, turn from a hobby to a career or to something you get paid for.

[00:16:06] It could just be a thing that you enjoy.

[00:16:08] They can stay there.

[00:16:09] My partner got certified in yoga instruction.

[00:16:11] And we were in a yoga class and we were doing hot yoga.

[00:16:14] And afterwards, I was like, oh, I need to go four times a week.

[00:16:16] I got to get better.

[00:16:17] And she was like, you keep bikes and running.

[00:16:20] Let me do yoga and swimming.

[00:16:21] Like, you could just come to the class and just use the class once a week to like stretch your body.

[00:16:26] You don't need to be like the best yoga person or better than me because you like, oh, you know, but I do that with everything.

[00:16:32] So it's a good reminder to just be like, OK, let's just do the things.

[00:16:36] Keep them fun and not have a bar or a stander.

[00:16:39] Just like spend time and enjoy it.

[00:16:41] And like, I got to do more of that.

[00:16:43] Yeah.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:44] Not everything has to turn into the next side gig or career stepping stone.

[00:16:49] Right.

[00:16:49] Yeah.

[00:16:50] Yeah.

[00:16:51] Absolutely.

[00:16:52] So I'm, I've been marinating on that a little bit.

[00:16:54] Like, and I love the birds, but also, you know what those like goals and sort of, it takes, it's more time.

[00:17:01] Right.

[00:17:01] And I just, I want to come to some of those spaces of the things I participate in and like to meditate, to feel, to relax, enjoy.

[00:17:08] And so just having that experience with it, it allows me to enjoy it and have it be as it is.

[00:17:14] I think I've learned like with birding, I want to be able to identify the birds more.

[00:17:19] But I now know that like more time with the birds helps you identify them.

[00:17:23] Right.

[00:17:23] Like as you continue, there's apps and all of that.

[00:17:25] And so, but that progress is slow and that is OK.

[00:17:29] Right.

[00:17:29] It doesn't need to be this.

[00:17:30] Like I took a class and now I'm an expert.

[00:17:32] It's like, I never talked to like second year med students.

[00:17:36] They like know everything.

[00:17:37] Yes.

[00:17:37] But they're not doctors yet.

[00:17:39] It's like that.

[00:17:40] I'm like, oh, I got it down.

[00:17:41] But it's like, no, you're not actually in the world.

[00:17:43] I can say that because I have people listening.

[00:17:45] You're a doctor.

[00:17:46] You know, they're just like, oh, I got it.

[00:17:48] It's like, no, you don't.

[00:17:49] So I just need to take the time and like be with the birds for a few years and then I'm,

[00:17:52] you know, I'm good.

[00:17:53] Yeah.

[00:17:54] I think they call that the Dunning-Kruger effect where, you know, just enough to think

[00:17:58] that you know everything, but you haven't learned enough to realize how much you don't actually

[00:18:02] know yet.

[00:18:04] Right.

[00:18:04] Or to like make assessment or, you know, problem solve really.

[00:18:08] It's yeah.

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:09] It's funny.

[00:18:10] So, you know, just learn about the birds at my own pace.

[00:18:13] And that brings up a really good point, too, when you think of it in terms of, you know,

[00:18:17] getting the certification, for example, then what you described with just spending time

[00:18:21] with the birds and being present in that moment, it's harder to be present in that moment when

[00:18:27] you're thinking about, okay, how does this moment get me closer to the thing that's coming

[00:18:32] next?

[00:18:33] And immediately that takes you out of the present and moment into like what's coming into

[00:18:37] the future or what should be happening in the future or even like what should be happening

[00:18:41] right now versus what is happening right now.

[00:18:43] And to your point, like if that's a base for healing and presence, those ideas take

[00:18:51] you straight out of that.

[00:18:53] Absolutely.

[00:18:54] Absolutely.

[00:18:54] And I've been fortunate to see a couple of hummingbirds like on my telephone line, like

[00:18:59] right in front of my house.

[00:19:00] And every time I scream, I don't know what kind, what they are.

[00:19:03] I've just been sitting there relaxing on the patio, the porch, seeing hummingbirds.

[00:19:07] And I'm just like, this is so cool.

[00:19:09] And then I'll text a friend and like a screaming emoji and be like, I saw another hummingbird

[00:19:13] and that's it.

[00:19:13] And I just keep saying, I'm like, I love that I'm just here watching, like observing and

[00:19:18] I'll be out there for two hours.

[00:19:19] And I'm like, this is so great.

[00:19:21] And it doesn't, I'm like not trying to, you know, I have taken a video or two, but even

[00:19:25] just like not even pulling my phone out, just like being there and observing and having

[00:19:29] that excitement and being like, you know, what's next?

[00:19:31] You know, what else am I going to see?

[00:19:33] That's been really like allowed me to just kind of like slow, add some ease to my day

[00:19:37] to day and slow down.

[00:19:38] But it is hard to not like think about the next thing or what I could be doing or doing

[00:19:43] the research and then like taking a picture, sharing the picture, what type of, you know,

[00:19:48] just pulls you out.

[00:19:49] Right.

[00:19:49] So, but I'm continually trying.

[00:19:51] So that's been a good, some good lessons.

[00:19:55] What got you into burning in the first place?

[00:19:57] So I actually, um, I run a bike group in Atlanta and one of my friends who was on our

[00:20:03] leadership team is part of the leadership for a feminist bird club, Atlanta, and they

[00:20:07] had a meetup.

[00:20:08] And so a friend and I went, it was two years ago.

[00:20:10] We were like, okay, we'll go.

[00:20:11] They had some binoculars.

[00:20:13] And I was just like taken aback, like literally, I think I saw like a great egret and some other

[00:20:17] stuff.

[00:20:17] And I was like, this is so cool.

[00:20:19] I've never paid attention to birds really.

[00:20:22] Like you hear them and I'm in a city, like a city and a forest is how they describe

[00:20:26] Atlanta.

[00:20:26] So there's a lot of super forested, assiduous, huge biodiversity, a lot of stuff here.

[00:20:32] And so there's a lot of birds all the time, but I just wasn't paying attention to them

[00:20:34] probably because I was looking at my phone or running to the next thing, being overscheduled.

[00:20:38] And I was just like, these like creatures are here, like living their life.

[00:20:42] And like, you know, now I know like providing like a big role in our ecosystem.

[00:20:47] But in the moment I was just like, oh my God, like this is so cool.

[00:20:50] And then I actually ended up, because I am who I am, I was on this birding trip.

[00:20:55] I have some bike friends and I was like, we should do a birding bike packing overnight.

[00:21:00] And my friend, there's a Knox, they make binoculars.

[00:21:04] They sent a lot of binoculars to all the feminist bird club chapters across the US to give folks

[00:21:10] access to free binoculars.

[00:21:12] I was like, let's do a trip.

[00:21:13] So then I just emailed the CEO and I was like, I run this group.

[00:21:16] We want to go birding.

[00:21:17] We need binoculars.

[00:21:18] Can you send some binoculars?

[00:21:19] And they were like, absolutely.

[00:21:20] And then it pretty, that was it.

[00:21:23] I know that's ridiculous, but yeah.

[00:21:25] And I was just like, kind of just, my friend's like, you should come, I'm doing this.

[00:21:28] I'm like, yeah, sure.

[00:21:29] And then I was just like, this is so cool.

[00:21:31] And I was with people who had birded and they were like, able to point stuff out.

[00:21:35] We were having conversations.

[00:21:36] So birding with people is also really fun just because you have that sort of citizen

[00:21:41] science.

[00:21:42] And there's the opportunity to like engage.

[00:21:44] I bird by myself too, but it's really fun to go in small groups.

[00:21:47] And I was just sort of like gripped by it.

[00:21:50] I don't know how else to describe that.

[00:21:52] And it was like, the meetup was 20 minutes from my house.

[00:21:55] It wasn't far.

[00:21:56] I could bike there and got some binoculars.

[00:21:59] The rest is history.

[00:22:00] I'll say you don't need binoculars to birth.

[00:22:02] Okay.

[00:22:03] But they help.

[00:22:04] That's it.

[00:22:05] I mean, and now it's been an act of something that allows me to slow down, to notice the world

[00:22:12] around me, to be quiet.

[00:22:14] You know, you have to really have to listen.

[00:22:15] And it's become in a way like a spiritual, like meditative practice, honestly.

[00:22:22] And I think that as I age, I'm learning how fast I'm moving all the time, how much I sort

[00:22:29] of take for granted and what's around me.

[00:22:32] So birding really is this like, you got to stop talking.

[00:22:35] You got to like hear, you know, observe, listen.

[00:22:37] And, you know, it's an observing activity pattern, that sort of thing.

[00:22:42] And there's 10,000 species of birds.

[00:22:45] I mean, that's like so much to see all the time everywhere.

[00:22:48] This is outside of a migration season.

[00:22:50] Okay.

[00:22:51] So we're talking like just there's stuff to see all the time.

[00:22:53] And so, yeah, it's just become this space to like quiet my brain.

[00:22:58] You know, I think cycling is on that for me too, right?

[00:23:01] I think one of the reasons I've gotten into like some deeper bike packing, right?

[00:23:04] It's like you're kind of just slowing down a bit internally in many ways.

[00:23:09] And yeah, I think I am on a constant journey to just be less busy.

[00:23:15] And birding is something that slows me down in this intentional way that I've come to love.

[00:23:21] And now I found community in birding.

[00:23:23] There's this really strong community of BIPOC birders, black birders, women birding that I've been able to connect with.

[00:23:31] And this is another thing that I do.

[00:23:33] It's like start a group.

[00:23:35] So I'm now like, I was like, I'm going to bird for my birthday last year.

[00:23:39] Like hosted a meetup.

[00:23:40] And now I've been able to work with this other woman locally in Atlanta.

[00:23:43] And we had a group she was running, but now we're doing like this black bird or sort of group in Atlanta, which is really cool.

[00:23:50] Because just like, oh, there's people in the nerdery like you who also want to do this.

[00:23:58] You know, it's just like, it's wild.

[00:23:59] It's like when you find the person who actually wants to talk about the nitty gritty of like how you would pack your bike, like Tetris for bike packing, you know?

[00:24:07] Love it.

[00:24:08] So yeah, it's been, it's, it's brought me so much joy.

[00:24:11] It's really, really exciting.

[00:24:13] Yeah, that brings up another great point, which is that in everything that I've read, you often describe yourself as a connector.

[00:24:20] So I'm curious about that.

[00:24:21] What does connection mean for you?

[00:24:23] Yeah, it's so interesting.

[00:24:25] I started describing myself that way, like sort of in advance of how I felt.

[00:24:30] And then it, then it just sort of like stuck.

[00:24:32] I think it was five years ago or so.

[00:24:35] I want to say it's like 2019, maybe 2020, because my life changed in the pandemic, I think is a great.

[00:24:42] It's sort of a good phrasing.

[00:24:43] And I think everyone's life changed.

[00:24:44] But I really was like working a remote job that I was experiencing some furloughs, was living in a tiny apartment, was really like going to nature to escape, right?

[00:24:58] Because I was just like, I need to like pee outside.

[00:25:00] And so things just sort of shifted for me, I think, four to five years ago.

[00:25:04] But I remember thinking about how I needed to describe myself.

[00:25:06] I started, I was doing some bikepacking starting in 2019.

[00:25:10] Folks were interested in having conversations.

[00:25:11] And I had to sort of describe myself.

[00:25:13] I was like, what, like, who am I?

[00:25:16] And at my core, I'm a lover of people.

[00:25:18] And that's how I describe myself often.

[00:25:20] And connector felt like a fitting word because I found myself always saying, like, I know this person who, right?

[00:25:27] And then someone else, someone would be like, I need this.

[00:25:30] And I was like, oh, I know this person who.

[00:25:32] And even like living in DC for many years, I was always that friend that someone was like, I have to go to this networking event.

[00:25:39] I don't like want to talk to these people.

[00:25:41] I need a buffer.

[00:25:42] And I was that friend.

[00:25:42] And I could talk to a wall.

[00:25:45] Like, it was like, I was that person.

[00:25:47] And so when I was thinking about sort of this next chapter of my life and getting into cycling more and just bikepacking and starting this cycling group, connector felt like a fit because I was interested in bringing people together to find resources to set things and opportunity that would help them and make them happier.

[00:26:07] And now it's kind of funny because my partner will joke like, oh, you'll just like say into the air that you need a thing and the thing will just come.

[00:26:16] And that happens now.

[00:26:18] It is so strange.

[00:26:19] I mean, my friend will be like, oh, I need to sell this motorcycle.

[00:26:22] And I'm like, I don't know anyone who wants.

[00:26:25] Oh, wait, blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:26] I did say they wanted a motorcycle.

[00:26:28] We're like, and it's the most random stuff like that is actually happened.

[00:26:30] And now it's like become this thing where I'm like, I have this awareness that I am privileged in my ability to talk to people.

[00:26:38] I have a background in fundraising.

[00:26:39] So, you know, that's an ask anyone for anything, literally.

[00:26:44] And I have this real skill set and sort of being able to get support for things that I'm interested in.

[00:26:52] I started this fight group and sort of have seen the way that approaching folks with an intention of building a relationship without authenticity and being kind.

[00:27:02] Like people want to help you, right?

[00:27:04] That's just sort of, I think, something that connects all of us as humans.

[00:27:08] And I have seen that in my own life.

[00:27:10] I've noticed that privilege and ability to talk to people, to connect with folks from all over, right?

[00:27:15] And so I started using that term, that phrase.

[00:27:18] And I'm now running this fight group where it's been really powerful to connect folks to bikepacking, to opportunities, to exchange joy on and off the bike, right?

[00:27:31] To build community.

[00:27:32] And so it was sort of a self-proven prophecy, but I found the word connector and it was like, I was already doing that, but I found the word later, but I didn't really believe it.

[00:27:41] And then I started saying it and then I'm looking back over my life and I was like, oh, I've always been this way, right?

[00:27:46] And always just wanting to help people.

[00:27:47] Like in kindergarten, we'd have these parent-teacher meetings and my parents would joke, like the feedback from the teacher was like,

[00:27:55] Devin always wants to help everyone else with their homework, but we want Devin to do her own homework.

[00:27:59] And I would just be going around like, what do you need?

[00:28:01] And it's just like, what?

[00:28:02] Why am I like, I was like six, how old are kindergartners?

[00:28:05] I don't even know.

[00:28:05] Like I was four to six or something.

[00:28:08] And my small, you know, my tiny self, I was doing that.

[00:28:11] And like present day, like I, you know, I have to sort of dial that back sometimes too, because I need to take care of myself first.

[00:28:19] But yeah, I do really feel, I don't know the right terminology, but like there's something inside of me that is activated when I like am able to help a friend, someone that I know well, and help someone who like needs a thing or resource.

[00:28:34] And I just happen to know it or have access to it or connect them to someone who might.

[00:28:39] And that feels really good.

[00:28:40] And it's become kind of like a joke now, because like I said, I remember I needed to get a gift for a friend.

[00:28:47] And I was just like, oh, I need to find this.

[00:28:49] I went to some antique shops, couldn't find it.

[00:28:51] Then I was like at someone's house, like grabbing some native plants.

[00:28:54] And I mentioned it loosely as I was referencing someone else.

[00:28:58] And they were like, oh, I have one of these just in the back.

[00:29:00] I'm not saying what it is in case you, there's a podcast and I haven't been able to deliver the gift yet.

[00:29:04] But then it just appeared and it worked.

[00:29:06] And I was like, this is wild.

[00:29:08] But that happens to me all the time.

[00:29:09] Remember?

[00:29:09] Like all the time.

[00:29:10] And it's just fascinating.

[00:29:12] And I'm like, okay, this is who you are.

[00:29:15] So yeah.

[00:29:16] You're leaning in.

[00:29:16] Five years ago, I was like, you're a connector.

[00:29:18] Yeah.

[00:29:19] Literally, you know?

[00:29:20] Yeah.

[00:29:21] I think it's a part of my life purpose.

[00:29:24] So yeah, it's been really cool to come into that and to own it.

[00:29:29] It's lovely.

[00:29:30] It's lovely.

[00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:32] It really is.

[00:29:33] And I think it allows me to, in the work that I do, right?

[00:29:36] Like even as an event planner, someone who's convening people, I find that being a connector allows me to like make it happen, right?

[00:29:43] So, you know, like in an event space, events are just organized chaos.

[00:29:47] But having relationships with people, being able to talk to people, see them like eye to eye on the same level, relate, has really added value to the strength and the type of work that I do.

[00:29:56] And so that has been really cool too.

[00:29:57] Because I was just sort of using it like, you know, oh, I'm in this bike world now.

[00:30:01] I'm a connector.

[00:30:01] It was like kind of fun.

[00:30:02] But it's actually like permeates all facets of my life.

[00:30:06] And it's really who I am on the inside.

[00:30:08] So that's been a cool sort of progression over the years to kind of learn myself and lean into that sort of descriptor.

[00:30:16] It seems so.

[00:30:17] Thanks for asking about that.

[00:30:18] It seems so aligned.

[00:30:19] And I imagine the way that you're describing this connection, I mean, an essential component of it is like really understanding through, you know, an empathic connection, what it is that other people need, what it is that they're actually looking for.

[00:30:32] And I imagine that when you're planning an event, that's a really, you know, important aspect of it.

[00:30:37] Like, what are the people who are attending this event needing?

[00:30:40] Like, what are the different kinds of people that are going to be here?

[00:30:42] And what are the things that all of those people are going to need?

[00:30:46] And I mean, that seems like just the perfect match.

[00:30:50] Yeah, it's worked out quite well.

[00:30:51] I think planning events for work can be different than planning events for like people you care about and love, like close to you.

[00:30:57] Right.

[00:30:57] I've acknowledged that too.

[00:30:59] Like planning event for my bike group.

[00:31:00] I was like, oh, this is harder because there's like a connection to it.

[00:31:03] Planning my mom's surprise birthday, a little harder, you know?

[00:31:05] But yeah, there is this sort of, it's been really useful, right?

[00:31:09] In my day to day.

[00:31:10] So yeah, it's been a powerful word for me more than I thought.

[00:31:16] I want to get into your work with Radical Adventure Writers.

[00:31:20] But before we jump right there, I want to stay on this for just a second because you have a background in psychology.

[00:31:25] So I'm really curious how, do you use your background in psychology to kind of influence,

[00:31:31] does that influence how you view connection, how you approach it?

[00:31:35] Yeah.

[00:31:36] So I remember wanting to study that and it's funny, college feels like eight years ago.

[00:31:42] And I remember really, I wanted to be a psychologist, right?

[00:31:47] Or well, at that time I was like, psychiatry, psychology.

[00:31:49] And then I was thinking I wanted to be a counselor.

[00:31:51] Like I wanted to help people, right?

[00:31:53] And then I realized that I could not, college was hard.

[00:31:57] And then I needed a graduate degree to like, continue on.

[00:32:01] And I was like, oh, I have to go back.

[00:32:03] Okay.

[00:32:04] Because it's like, you're there teaching or doing clinical.

[00:32:06] It was like, not, you know, and then counseling, again, more schooling.

[00:32:09] And so I don't know that it's, I think looking back on it, like, I'm very curious around how people think.

[00:32:17] I'm curious around like what has occurred in your family of origin that has, that makes you who you are, right?

[00:32:24] And then how you're thinking and like arrive at these different places in terms of how we can connect.

[00:32:30] So yes, in sort of this roundabout way.

[00:32:33] But at the time I couldn't have, like when I was like, I'm an agent in psychology.

[00:32:36] It was like, oh, I like my dad's a physician.

[00:32:38] I was like, I like people.

[00:32:40] I want to understand interactions in social psychology.

[00:32:43] It was really interesting to me when I was younger.

[00:32:46] And so I was like, oh, I'll do this.

[00:32:47] And then I was like, oh, more school.

[00:32:48] No, I'm an experiential learner.

[00:32:50] I was like, I can't do this.

[00:32:51] But no one's asked me this, right?

[00:32:54] So this is interesting.

[00:32:56] But I do think I am sort of curious about sort of this nature versus nurture debate, family of origin, how it affects our relationships, both like romantic and other platonic otherwise.

[00:33:08] And so I do think in a way that sort of was like the seed that started it all, but not in the path that I was thinking it would, right?

[00:33:17] And so I now do a lot of reading about relationship psychology.

[00:33:21] I am someone who's a proponent of therapy.

[00:33:23] I am very interested in relationships, friendships, maintaining those, what it looks like to have like intimate platonic friendships, what it means to understand how we relate to others, what we can know about ourselves to inform those relationships.

[00:33:39] So there's a lot of threads there.

[00:33:41] And it is something I think about, something I journal about.

[00:33:44] I think if I could go to school part-time for free, I might consider, you know, something like that in my future.

[00:33:51] But I did an internship during college at the Ronald McDonald House of Winston-Salem and worked with a counselor there.

[00:33:58] I still remember her.

[00:33:59] And I remember thinking like, this is so cool.

[00:34:02] Like she meets these people and she has this skill set to really change these people's lives, right?

[00:34:07] We're being so fascinated by that.

[00:34:08] And I do, I'm someone who friends come to for advice.

[00:34:14] And I like take that seriously and want to like, you know, help people in those spaces.

[00:34:18] And so it's something that I've always been attracted to, but it was never sort of like a career sort of per se.

[00:34:26] But I do think about it a lot and a question asker.

[00:34:31] And I think that's sort of where the psychology has played into my kind of day-to-day.

[00:34:36] And I think within psychology and relationships, I've learned a lot about active listening.

[00:34:43] And that's been something that has aided in like relationship building and understanding people and meeting people where they are and through that empathetic sort of understanding and connection.

[00:34:51] So there's some threads, but I would say it's not, you know, hasn't been woven together in the way that I thought it would be when I was, you know, studying it in undergrad, if that makes sense.

[00:35:02] That makes so much sense.

[00:35:04] I often reflect on this, that going back to that idea of, okay, you need to know what you're going to do when you're 18.

[00:35:10] Or like, even once you get into college, I mean, you know, if that's your path, picking a major can feel really overwhelming.

[00:35:17] And I remember one of the things I did to sort of like anchor myself in that anxiety or ground myself, I guess, in that anxiety was reminding myself that like, not that it doesn't matter what you study, but whatever I ultimately decided to study would teach me different ways of thinking about the world.

[00:35:35] And that that in and of itself is very useful.

[00:36:05] I remember college being like quite hard, but I enjoyed my classes.

[00:36:09] Right.

[00:36:10] And hindsight in where when I was sort of like looking for jobs, I'm like, I should have done business, but I would have been so bored and probably fun because I'm not good at business.

[00:36:18] But I was like, oh, I need to, you know, have a job that does this.

[00:36:21] And yeah, I think it would have been cool to do psychology and like anthropology and some other sort of a mixture of things.

[00:36:28] But yeah, I guess everything happens for a reason.

[00:36:31] But I'm grateful for sort of this early decisions that I have an awareness that I was not necessarily the best student, but I like love to learn it.

[00:36:39] Yeah.

[00:36:40] So I think that's a, I'm not a classroom student, but yeah.

[00:36:44] Well, it's funny that you say that about business because you might have been bored out of your mind in college and yet you have built successful businesses now later in your career.

[00:36:53] And one of those being building the radical adventure writers chapter in Atlanta.

[00:36:59] So, and this is like, this has been such a great segue to this because, you know, here you are, you have experience in event planning, you're a connector, you have this background in psychology and how all of these things weave together.

[00:37:10] So how has all of that kind of come together in building the Atlanta chapter for the radical adventure writers?

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:16] So I launched RAR HL in April of 2019.

[00:37:23] We were called something else then, but now that RAR has chapters, we sort of were grandfathered into that and changed our name.

[00:37:30] And I'd done a bikepacking trip in 2018 with a couple of friends.

[00:37:34] I'd been wanting to do bikepacking.

[00:37:36] I'd seen some folks doing it.

[00:37:37] And I was like, oh, this is cool.

[00:37:38] In 2018, I had earlier that year ended a relationship and RAR Asia Bites like gone camping as an adult, which is something I hadn't really done because, you know, not a camper until, you know, really the 2015 to 2018.

[00:37:53] And so I went camping, wanted to go bike camping, went with some friends at November 2018.

[00:37:59] And I like had this $90 bike from Craigslist.

[00:38:03] I had one pannier saddlebag from bike commuting.

[00:38:09] And then you took another one.

[00:38:10] They didn't match.

[00:38:11] Borrowed the rest of the bags I needed.

[00:38:13] Did not have a car.

[00:38:15] I took the bus to the Silver Comet Trail and like biked on the trail into Alabama and back with some friends.

[00:38:24] And it was at that time the hardest thing I'd ever done.

[00:38:27] It was kind of wild.

[00:38:29] It's like looking at my photos, my bikepacking photos then to now.

[00:38:33] It's like the setups are night and day.

[00:38:35] And I love that about bikepacking.

[00:38:36] Like you continue to iterate for years, right?

[00:38:38] You can keep learning things.

[00:38:41] And I was like, this was so fun.

[00:38:43] This is really hard.

[00:38:44] These people who I developed a friendship with prior to that, they really supported me in that space.

[00:38:50] I was like, I want to do this again, but have gear that's functional and sort of shift my sort of setup and all of that.

[00:38:57] And at the time, Radical Adventure Writers had been started in, I guess, in the Pacific Northwest.

[00:39:05] I had gotten wind of some women that were organizing in Baltimore at the time.

[00:39:10] And I reached out to them.

[00:39:11] I was like, hey, I see you're doing like organizing bikepacking stuff with trans men and women, cis women, non-binary folks.

[00:39:18] I'm traveling to D.C., Baltimore for work.

[00:39:21] Could I meet up with you?

[00:39:22] Could we kind of chat?

[00:39:23] I want to start this in Atlanta.

[00:39:24] And they were like, of course.

[00:39:25] So that January of 2019, I went and visited with these two women, Danielle and Kimberly.

[00:39:31] They now live other places.

[00:39:33] And they took me around.

[00:39:34] We kind of had these conversations.

[00:39:35] And they were like, here are the trips we've done.

[00:39:37] Here's the language we've used.

[00:39:38] Here's some tools.

[00:39:39] And then me being an event planner, I was like, I'm launching this thing in April.

[00:39:44] These are the 10 events we're doing this month.

[00:39:46] 10 events.

[00:39:46] In one month.

[00:39:47] Okay.

[00:39:48] And I had a full-time job.

[00:39:50] Okay.

[00:39:50] The 10 events we're doing, I'd made some fringe.

[00:39:53] And in Atlanta, I'd made a few friendships here.

[00:39:56] I'd scanned the landscape to see who was doing what, who's organizing around these communities, right?

[00:40:02] With cis women, trans women, non-binary folks, trans men.

[00:40:06] What are folks doing in Atlanta to convene?

[00:40:09] And there wasn't that yet.

[00:40:11] So that, I do want to say that there was not at that time, to my knowledge, an entity that was doing this.

[00:40:17] So I didn't want to like, you know, I didn't want to start another thing if I could have like worked with other folks.

[00:40:22] And so anyway, Scan the Lands need to ask some questions kind of, you know, and then did like 10 events.

[00:40:28] We were doing like happy hour bike ride.

[00:40:30] I was, I had connected with some folks who had bike pack.

[00:40:33] In fact, I had them like lead a bike packing 101 at a local bag maker shop who this guy let me use his face.

[00:40:42] And I was like, it's not for cis men.

[00:40:44] So like, I need you to not be here, but we want to use the face.

[00:40:46] It's like, just kind of had, I was like, we're going to do this thing.

[00:40:49] And then I was just, I remember that year, I had a good friend of mine who worked in marketing and she helped with making an Instagram account and all of that.

[00:40:56] I remember that those first few months we were doing, I was doing all these events while working a job.

[00:41:00] I can't remember what job right now, but I had a job.

[00:41:02] Okay.

[00:41:03] And then I remember in those early days, I was like meeting people and I was like, what's your name?

[00:41:09] How did you hear about us?

[00:41:10] And I was like talking to every single person who came to something.

[00:41:14] But I remember just being like a very sort of face-to-face and asking people stories and all this stuff.

[00:41:19] And it just became this thing where I was like, I enjoyed this bike packing trip.

[00:41:22] It was really significant in my life.

[00:41:24] I want to do more of it, but I'm also acknowledging the barriers to accessing this sport, this activity.

[00:41:29] And I learned through the cycling communities I was a part of that a lot of the men I knew had bags and gear.

[00:41:37] And so I was like, how can we sort of get more bags and gear and have people use them for trips they want to take without spending money?

[00:41:46] So fast forward and now Radical Binge Riders Atlanta, we've got a great gear library.

[00:41:52] I have a team.

[00:41:53] This is all volunteer, but I have a team.

[00:41:55] We're hosting affinity rides, hosting kind of open shops.

[00:42:01] We've done bikepacking 101s at some local places like Patagonia, Atlanta, other places.

[00:42:07] And we have a physical space.

[00:42:09] And we have this really robust gear library.

[00:42:11] All the gear has been donated, both from like friends, people I've asked, and some larger organizations.

[00:42:18] And we, you know, have high circulation rates.

[00:42:22] And we lead some, say, semi-regular bikepacking trips because it's a lot of work.

[00:42:28] It's a lot of work.

[00:42:29] But we're registered as an LLC.

[00:42:31] So it is a business, I guess, but we don't make any money from it.

[00:42:33] But yeah, it's been this really wonderful space for me to learn about myself, to be able to like bring bike joy to people, right?

[00:42:45] It's like one of the things in starting this was like, that was always in my mind was,

[00:42:49] what does it look like for someone who's interested in this thing to do it and have it fit into their life?

[00:42:55] So that means, first of all, like removing the barrier of like, you need to take vacation to do this, right?

[00:43:03] Bikepacking had this season where it was really sexy.

[00:43:05] And it's like, we're doing these epic trips.

[00:43:07] You've got these epic bikes with these epic bags.

[00:43:09] And it's like, I can go to my house, from my house with my bike, with a backpack to my friend's house and camp in the yard and that's bikepacking, right?

[00:43:16] So there need to be this thing.

[00:43:18] I mean, I wouldn't recommend regularly bikepacking with a backpack because of shoulder pain, but you can still do it, right?

[00:43:24] And so it meant having it be maybe like one night on a weekend near home, first of all.

[00:43:30] The second piece is the type of bike you have now.

[00:43:33] Most people who are just bikepacking already have some sort of bike.

[00:43:35] That meant like what trails are available?

[00:43:38] Like what do we have in town that you can get to without having to adjust the bike?

[00:43:42] And then the bags, the camping gear, all of that.

[00:43:45] Of course, you know, with bike camping, there's, you need lightweight gear because you're carrying it on your bike.

[00:43:49] You can't carry like a regulation size tent on your bike.

[00:43:52] I mean, you could, but it's heavy.

[00:43:53] And so really looking to figure out how to remove kind of those barriers and there's other barriers to accessibility.

[00:44:02] And that's an education barrier.

[00:44:04] And that's much harder to remove because you have to sort of teach people and, you know, you do the learning and it comes with time.

[00:44:09] But trying to remove those barriers around people, seeing how it fits into their life.

[00:44:13] And so that's been an ongoing thing that we've been doing.

[00:44:18] But yeah, it's been really fun.

[00:44:19] It's been challenging.

[00:44:20] I think the gear library has been really special because people will come and they're like, I didn't think I could do this thing.

[00:44:27] And then I got the stuff and then I did this thing and it was fun, you know?

[00:44:33] And it's not like 15 year olds.

[00:44:35] I mean, the youth are cool, but like it's grown people with jobs and responsibility and lives who are like, oh, I did the thing.

[00:44:43] I remember my partner one day was like, she came on one of our trips and she was like, I've wanted to do this, but I didn't have the bridge.

[00:44:51] No one could carry me over the bridge to like have the experience.

[00:44:55] And then she didn't.

[00:44:56] She's like, okay, I could do this again.

[00:44:57] And then you see it.

[00:44:58] And that feeling of like, I think empowerment is overused, but there's something to be said about this opportunity to see a thing that you want to do that you think you can't do and then to do it.

[00:45:10] And then you're like, oh, and then maybe it didn't cost you like $500 because people can do bikepacking trips and you want people to have the freedom to have,

[00:45:21] you won't be able to come back.

[00:45:22] Okay.

[00:45:23] And not everyone has the privilege to have like a really good experience and come back.

[00:45:27] Right.

[00:45:27] Sometimes you do a bikepacking trip and it rains and it's your first time and you don't do it again.

[00:45:31] Right.

[00:45:31] That happens.

[00:45:32] And so having that thing where someone's like, this was fun.

[00:45:35] I was with a group of people.

[00:45:36] I want to do this more.

[00:45:37] And so to sort of see that in real time and to have these conversations and these testimonials, it's so soul enriching.

[00:45:47] We don't lead as many introductory trips because it's very hard to do that with regularity in terms of like the support systems and it just being like a volunteer thing.

[00:45:58] But we are working on like providing kits and routes for people to do it themselves and to do like the training.

[00:46:04] And then they kind of, you know, but yeah, it's been, it's been really, really awesome.

[00:46:09] Um, I would love to, you know, one day do it all the time, but, um, I have, you know, responsibilities and bills, but I have, so two of my friends who I work, who I've worked with on this specifically.

[00:46:23] We've sort of, one of them has transitioned out, but we're able to kind of write about it a little bit and do some storytelling.

[00:46:31] And recently had a conversation with a woman who is kind of doing, talking about different types of libraries, um, a non-traditional library.

[00:46:40] And we were chatting with her a couple of weeks ago and she was like, you're transforming lives.

[00:46:44] And we were like, okay, what are you talking about?

[00:46:46] You know, but it was really cool to just talk about the people we connected with and what we'd done and how we had like this perfect combination of, I have this friend, my, both of my friends are librarians.

[00:46:55] My two bikepacking friends are librarians. So one like created the catalog, right? The other one who's a librarian is like a YouTuber and can like film. And then I'm the person trying to get the free show.

[00:47:04] I'm like, wow, we have the perfect combination of three people with skillsets to do this thing. And we were just like, this has been a true labor of love, right?

[00:47:11] And we're still iterating, like trying to figure out like a sort of a locker model for folks, folks to pick, pick stuff up and all of that.

[00:47:18] But it was really cool to just like look back on the journey of how it started.

[00:47:22] We were originally going to be in my basement for the gear library and that just doesn't make any sense. But here we are.

[00:47:28] But anyway, RAR, RAR ETL has been something I could not have dreamed, right? That has, that has come true.

[00:47:35] Like it, I sort of in the beginning kind of built the ship as I was driving a ship. I don't know the right terminology.

[00:47:41] But now I'm sort of in the phase of like, how do we make it sustainable longer term?

[00:47:45] What does that look like to be able to do this? I want to do provide free programming, right?

[00:47:50] But then be able to like have a physical space, store gear, get more gear, you know, outside of the gear library, like build community, right?

[00:47:57] Have someone come in who rides bikes, who wants to meet folks, wants to have a good time, wants to be in an affinity space.

[00:48:04] We do BIPOC rides, we do trans-on-binary rides.

[00:48:06] We have an all-community ride, which ends up being just like really queer, which is great.

[00:48:09] And then also providing some of those bike maintenance, bike classes, workshops that folks can sort of just feel good about the skills that they can acquire when like out on a ride and able to kind of take care of themselves.

[00:48:24] So I probably won't have children, but it's felt like my baby in a way, you know?

[00:48:30] And so I think that I have been hard on myself at times of like, this could be better, it could, you know, but it has been really cool to kind of have the journey and the story.

[00:48:39] And I'm now finally at a place where I can, if you have a team, I have learned how to delegate.

[00:48:44] Folks are kind of, there was a period of time where I went to every single event.

[00:48:48] And then over the past year and a half, it's been like, oh, actually, I don't go to the rides because we have a volunteer crew and like someone who's managing that.

[00:48:56] And we like staff the rides and, you know, and sort of, we all have roles and it's a little team.

[00:49:01] It'd be great if we could get, you know, a million dollars and we'll get paid over the next 10 years.

[00:49:06] And, you know, those are, that's in the 10 year vision plan.

[00:49:09] But yeah, it's really cool.

[00:49:12] And we're still, we're still growing and iterating and some exciting things coming, I hope in the next 12 to 18 months as well.

[00:49:20] What are some of the biggest challenges you've had?

[00:49:21] You've mentioned a couple like delegating because, I mean, you've grown this from the point of, okay, let's just do the thing to now being at a point where you're thinking longer term about sustainability.

[00:49:32] And the problems that you're solving now are so different than the ones that you were solving in the beginning.

[00:49:38] What are some of the challenges that stand out to you as having been like really maybe formative learning experiences?

[00:49:45] Yeah, it's funny.

[00:49:47] I used to have a newsletter and that was an email.

[00:49:51] I was writing in Courier New with the events, like just an email.

[00:49:54] Now it's MailChimp.

[00:49:55] But it was like me typing up notes in Courier New font.

[00:49:59] I don't know why I thought that made sense from my email account.

[00:50:02] And it's just like grown so much.

[00:50:04] But I think one of the biggest challenges is building a thing and then recognizing that like I don't know everything.

[00:50:38] Mm-hmm.

[00:50:40] And feedback is critical to help us like expand and grow.

[00:50:45] And so I think creating a thing and then recognizing that I don't need to do everything.

[00:50:50] I don't need to guide everything.

[00:50:52] Like I can, like I need a team to do something successfully.

[00:50:55] And, you know, to have multiple voices helps us grow and be strong and like maintain.

[00:51:01] I think the other thing is I talk to people like you and other folks about this and I'm like, this is really great.

[00:51:08] And, you know, people aren't lining up to cut checks.

[00:51:10] Right.

[00:51:10] Okay.

[00:51:11] Yeah.

[00:51:11] The fundraising, getting money for a thing like this, it's so challenging.

[00:51:15] It's like you have to prove many things.

[00:51:18] And, you know, I think we find this in a lot of things that are not sort of checking the box of, you know, marketable, run by men, like all of these things.

[00:51:28] Right.

[00:51:29] And so people are like signing up to like cut checks for like queer BIPOC run stuff.

[00:51:32] Right.

[00:51:33] You know what I mean?

[00:51:33] Yep.

[00:51:33] And so thinking about what is the way that we can tell the story of what we're doing and get support in a way that works for us.

[00:51:42] Right.

[00:51:42] You're not a 501c3.

[00:51:44] That's something that I've thought about.

[00:51:45] I think we may move to later, but that's not where we are yet.

[00:51:47] What does it look like to tell the story of what we're doing, get funding and not like exploit the people that are a part of this community.

[00:51:55] Right.

[00:51:55] And really that delicate balance of this is something that I think you should support for the following reasons.

[00:52:00] And I'm not going to like have, you know, 17 people like write their life story about why it's made a difference.

[00:52:05] Right.

[00:52:06] And also leaning into community for support and not necessarily like these large industries or large sort of, you know, the bike industry is out of time.

[00:52:16] Recently, funding has been flowed.

[00:52:20] And so, you know, I've learned from friends, from Aisha, from my friends around like the importance of controlling the narrative and not sort of giving into what folks who are offering you money like need or what trying to guide like, okay, we're going to give you this.

[00:52:38] You need to do, you need to like jump through these hoops and having that freedom to even say no to something that isn't in line with like values or, and you don't know, not all of us have the privilege to say no to those things.

[00:52:49] Cause like funding is funding.

[00:52:50] Right.

[00:52:50] And so thinking about what our core values are, what the ethos is, and then being able to have that sort of drive, how we connect with folks who give money.

[00:52:59] A lot of the money we receive have been from friends of mine, friends that I've just asked for money.

[00:53:05] Uh, we've received some grants that didn't require like being a nonprofit, but yeah, it's, you know, funding has been, and I've had some bike sponsors who've like supported me directly and cut a check.

[00:53:16] And I've given that money to Rari, you know, but yeah, that's been a challenge, I think.

[00:53:20] And I think the third thing would be, you know, I started a thing and I don't need to be there forever.

[00:53:26] Right.

[00:53:27] I'm not ready to leave, but you know, knowing that I'm a nonprofit person and founder syndrome is a thing that is talked about a lot.

[00:53:35] Um, and how do you like start a thing, you run a thing, and then you didn't have an inability to run a thing.

[00:53:41] Well, I don't want that to happen.

[00:53:43] Um, and so now my next step is like, what does sustainability look like?

[00:53:47] Um, in the next three years, five years, 10 years, you know, what does it mean if I leave Atlanta?

[00:53:52] I don't have plans to do that, but that, you know, life is, life is an adventure, right?

[00:53:57] Anything could happen.

[00:53:58] And so what does it look like to have good documentation operations systems, teach people what you know, to go forth, um, engage with the right folks, be in a state of learning so that I can, uh, reach a point where I don't need to be present all the time.

[00:54:14] And we are, we are there in some ways that just, yeah, in five years, if I want to like move to Mexico, you know, that's okay.

[00:54:21] I don't need to be present.

[00:54:22] And I think the, the model of what, that collective community is one way to do that.

[00:54:28] When folks feel like they all have a role to play, all supporting each other.

[00:54:32] Um, I think that is something where we've worked towards as a team and still building that, but yeah.

[00:54:40] And then like succession planning, like I was like, I don't know yet.

[00:54:43] I don't have the answer, but just, you know, making those plans.

[00:54:46] And I think the two years ago I was like, I have to be here for this to run well.

[00:54:49] Now I know that it's not true, but that was something that was sort of gripping me, you know, because I have grown so much in the past six years or five years.

[00:55:00] Because my cycling interest and skills have grown.

[00:55:05] And that doesn't mean just because I was a person at this one time, I need to keep up the same where I felt a certain way.

[00:55:12] You know, I don't feel that way, but I just sort of, as an example, like, I don't know how I'm going to fail in three to five years, but I do know that it's a good thing.

[00:55:20] I want to continue to build a community and make sure that it is strong and then kind of see what it looks like to put in some support that it can continue without me having to be present.

[00:55:30] So yeah, it's, it's been, gosh, I need to, I need to write a book.

[00:55:35] I was going to say, I mean.

[00:55:36] I do need to, you know, I do, I do journal quite a bit, but I have journaled less about this, but yeah, just thinking through as I talk about it, like all the sort of waves and.

[00:55:46] Well, it's really clear. I mean, you're really playing the long game with this, right?

[00:55:50] Like you're, you're not taking money in the short term that might sacrifice the integrity of the community and thinking about how whatever funding you take on is going to impact not just you and the organization, but all of the community members and people who are benefiting from it.

[00:56:08] I mean, all of everything that you brought up is just incredibly thoughtful and forward thinking.

[00:56:13] And I love that you articulated all of that because I think anyone else who might be listening, who's thinking about building community, who's thinking about, you know, maybe they have a community and they're thinking about funding challenges.

[00:56:25] Like all of the questions that you articulated are questions I think that are super important to be asking.

[00:56:30] So yeah.

[00:56:31] Thank you for going so deep on that.

[00:56:33] That's really.

[00:56:35] Yeah, no, it's like, oh, I hadn't thought about that in the past, but it's, it's reminding me too.

[00:56:39] Like I need to sort of record some notes around, you know, what we're doing, thoughts, plans, that kind of thing.

[00:56:45] So I appreciate the question.

[00:56:47] We'll be right back with more from Devin Cowens after this quick break.

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[00:57:18] And now back to our conversation with Devin Cowens, founder of the Radical Adventure Writers Chapter in Atlanta.

[00:57:30] So I want to go back in time a little bit.

[00:57:33] But there was a piece you wrote for the Adventure Cycling Association back in 2020.

[00:57:37] So it sounds like this may have been pretty early on in your bikepacking journey.

[00:57:44] You describe an intense encounter seeing a grizzly bear while you were riding through the wilderness in Montana.

[00:57:49] And this was your quote.

[00:57:52] Later in my tent that night, I was grateful for evening and prayed for no more grizzlies.

[00:57:56] As I reflected, I asked myself what I was afraid of and why and what was underneath it.

[00:58:02] Would you tell us about what happened that day and what prompted you to ask that question and maybe even like what you learned in asking yourself that question?

[00:58:11] Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, that was like ages ago.

[00:58:14] I look at those pictures and I'm like, oh, you were just a babe, a wee babe then.

[00:58:20] And I took that trip with my dear friend Sarah, who is still bikepacking.

[00:58:25] We met at a conference in D.C. in 2019.

[00:58:27] And she's like, come visit me. Let's ride bikes in Montana.

[00:58:30] I was like, OK, yeah, which is also my personality.

[00:58:35] And that trip, I borrowed a bike from her short friend.

[00:58:38] And it was 4'11". Sarah's like 5'10", I think.

[00:58:43] And so I borrowed a bike.

[00:58:44] So as you know, borrowing bikes brings its own sort of challenges.

[00:58:48] So that trip was, I can't even remember the full mileage, but in hindsight, it was probably quite ambitious.

[00:58:55] But I remember there was a lot of newness to that trip.

[00:58:58] And I packed up this bike.

[00:59:01] It fit. I could ride it. It was heavy.

[00:59:03] I was nervous. Sarah's very strong.

[00:59:05] But I was there. We were doing this trip.

[00:59:07] And I remember she'd given me bear spray, which I didn't know was a thing until that weekend.

[00:59:12] OK.

[00:59:12] And I remember we were riding.

[00:59:14] And I said, like, we're climbing this hill.

[00:59:17] I remember, like, I remember the size of the gravel trunks.

[00:59:19] Like, that's how vivid this moment was.

[00:59:22] And I was like, what happens after you spray the bear spray?

[00:59:26] What do you do?

[00:59:28] And she was like, oh, I actually haven't gotten that far yet.

[00:59:31] And I was like, what?

[00:59:32] Oh, like, we're out here.

[00:59:33] And you don't know the next step after the bear spray.

[00:59:36] I was like, oh, weird.

[00:59:37] Like, what is happening?

[00:59:39] Turns out the bears don't want to be with you either.

[00:59:41] Excuse my French.

[00:59:42] Like, you know, I learned that later when we get back.

[00:59:44] And I survived, obviously, to tell this.

[00:59:45] But I remember I was like, what are you talking about?

[00:59:48] And we're climbing at this.

[00:59:49] I'm just like, what?

[00:59:50] And I remember there's a grizzly bear, like, out of the corner of her eye.

[00:59:53] Like, she pointed it out.

[00:59:54] She was like, I don't want to freak you out.

[00:59:55] But there's a bear.

[00:59:56] Just, you know, and I was like, I remember, like, getting really cold.

[00:59:59] And just slowing down.

[01:00:01] And, like, trying to just focus on, like, I saw it in my eye.

[01:00:04] Trying to focus and just moving.

[01:00:05] And I was like, oh, my God.

[01:00:07] You think about camping, being outdoors.

[01:00:10] I was like, this is why Black people don't camp.

[01:00:12] There are bears.

[01:00:12] I don't know what to do.

[01:00:13] This is scary.

[01:00:14] Like, whatever.

[01:00:14] It was just one of those ones where I was like, I'm regretting all my life.

[01:00:17] And it's, of course, like, you know, far from that now, right?

[01:00:20] I still don't want to see it there.

[01:00:21] But I can, you know, I have tools.

[01:00:24] I'm equipped now.

[01:00:25] But I am someone who's also a reflector, right?

[01:00:29] That's sort of how I've, with my life, I, as a child, was given agency to express emotions.

[01:00:39] And that feels like a gift.

[01:00:41] And as an adult, I am reflective.

[01:00:43] And so it is not unusual for me to ask myself those questions, right?

[01:00:49] And so I have also learned that.

[01:00:53] As emotions present themselves, there's layers to that, right?

[01:00:56] Like, anger is rarely presented on its own.

[01:00:58] There's something else behind it.

[01:01:00] So I'm constantly, I'll say constantly, but regularly, if I experience something that

[01:01:05] the dial, like, shoots up, I'm like, oh, what is, what's beneath this?

[01:01:08] Because I want to understand what I'm feeling, how I'm processing.

[01:01:13] And in this instant, I was like, I don't want this to happen again.

[01:01:16] Yeah.

[01:01:16] Where can we, what can I dig into to prevent it?

[01:01:19] Because, I mean, I was frozen, right?

[01:01:20] Like, I was actually, I was moving, but I was frozen, right?

[01:01:23] Like, I remember physically being cold.

[01:01:25] It was Montana in July, which is actually quite nice.

[01:01:28] But, you know, you could keep cheese in your bag for four days and still eat it.

[01:01:32] Can't do that in summer in Georgia.

[01:01:34] And so I remember being like, I don't want this to happen again.

[01:01:38] What can I do to sort of, like, unpack what this fear is?

[01:01:40] And I think there were just layers of newness occurring for me.

[01:01:45] And also fear.

[01:01:46] I was like, Sarah and I were good friends, but we hadn't known each other very long, right?

[01:01:50] And so there's this layer two of them.

[01:01:52] I'm like, I'm with this person.

[01:01:53] What is she going to do?

[01:01:54] Like, am I going to move me?

[01:01:55] So there's all these, like, sort of, of course, you know, it would have made sense to

[01:01:59] ask those questions before, but like, I wasn't even like jazzed.

[01:02:02] Yeah.

[01:02:03] Like bikepacking in a new state.

[01:02:04] Yeah.

[01:02:05] And so I think all of that sort of the driving force behind sort of being in that reflection

[01:02:11] mode and asking those questions is like, like, how can I don't want this to happen again.

[01:02:16] And I'm in this bikepacking thing.

[01:02:18] I got on a plane and gave another state.

[01:02:20] I'm going to be doing this more.

[01:02:21] Like, how, where's the, can I grow from this?

[01:02:24] Where, where can I sort of get stronger?

[01:02:26] It's interesting that you asked this because I did a trip to Spain in 2022.

[01:02:31] And I remember acknowledging that I wanted to grow my mental strength and figuring out

[01:02:37] a plan to do that.

[01:02:38] And so this is sort of a precursor to that in some ways, because I'm like, had this fear

[01:02:42] moment.

[01:02:42] And how can I prevent this from happening again?

[01:02:46] And that sort of sense of the unknown being in the wilderness, that there's a draw to that

[01:02:52] in some ways, I think for people who bikepack, there's a draw to that for me, like unknown,

[01:02:56] but like controlled because you make a route, you know, you have, you plan to go, but having

[01:03:02] this, this interest and learning about a scenario and like growing from that or growing feels

[01:03:08] like there's, there's a goal, which I mentioned earlier is goal oriented, but being able to

[01:03:13] sort of like experience it differently because that fear was uncomfortable, right?

[01:03:18] I don't want to be uncomfortable again in this way.

[01:03:20] Right.

[01:03:21] What does that look like?

[01:03:22] And so I think that sort of was the, what was happening for me in that reflection point

[01:03:28] in my tent.

[01:03:29] Yeah.

[01:03:29] Which is, I find that so interesting because I think so many people would just have stopped

[01:03:34] at the fear.

[01:03:35] Like, wow, that was so scary.

[01:03:36] I'm glad that's over full stop.

[01:03:38] And then there's kind of the next step of, oh, that was a particularly like intense and

[01:03:45] uncomfortable flavor of fear.

[01:03:47] I wonder what was going on there.

[01:03:49] And then you even went a layer deeper and like, well, what might be under the fear?

[01:03:53] And in the article, you started to articulate how it really connected back with specifically

[01:04:00] being a black woman in the outdoors.

[01:04:02] Can you talk a little bit about what, like what you uncovered when you started peeling back

[01:04:08] those layers?

[01:04:09] Yeah.

[01:04:10] I think, as I mentioned earlier, I hadn't spent a lot of time camping as an adult.

[01:04:14] I really camped first time as an adult with a former partner and then sort of like did it

[01:04:18] as an adult and enjoyed it and wanted to continue doing it.

[01:04:21] And I think when you think about the wilderness being outside, you know, people talk about

[01:04:27] like wild places and a lot of white people talk about wild places and being in the wilderness

[01:04:31] and it being like all of these things.

[01:04:33] Now, I feel that way now.

[01:04:35] I think my language is a little different, but I think as like a person of color, there

[01:04:41] has been a history of like fear of outside, right?

[01:04:45] Growing up in a city, being a black person, black parents, it's like you go outside, you

[01:04:50] come in before the street lights go off, right?

[01:04:53] There are like dangerous things outside.

[01:04:55] Nature is healing for me now.

[01:04:57] But as a kid and growing up, it's like, you know, the world can be a scary place.

[01:05:02] Being in the wilderness with animals, like there's just, there's this layer of, I was

[01:05:06] talking to a friend a few years ago and she was like, why would you camp outside?

[01:05:12] You have a home, a nice house.

[01:05:15] It's like, why would you want to be sleeping and outside?

[01:05:17] Why are you doing that?

[01:05:18] And so that is something that I think black people, that's still a conversation.

[01:05:22] I have this huge community of people of color that are, that camp in or outdoors,

[01:05:26] but there's still a large, you know, a large number of people, BIPOC folks who were like,

[01:05:30] I'm not camping.

[01:05:31] I'll need to be outside for what?

[01:05:32] There's scary out there.

[01:05:33] And so there was this moment for me of I'm doing this thing that I enjoy.

[01:05:38] And there's this, also this layer of fear around like what could happen if I'm approached.

[01:05:43] I was with my friend who I trust and care about, but what's been my experience outside?

[01:05:50] What tools do I have to respond to something that is unknown?

[01:05:55] How do I react to different creatures?

[01:05:57] You know, anything compared to like snakes?

[01:05:59] I don't know.

[01:06:00] Like there's, so there's all these layers of sort of my own awareness of my lack of experience

[01:06:09] in the outdoors in terms of dealing with wildlife and all of this, but also the history of our

[01:06:15] country of like not belonging in a place, being someone, you know, we have all these national

[01:06:20] parks in these places that are stolen land, right?

[01:06:24] And folks of color are experiencing outdoors more publicly now.

[01:06:28] We're, I think we're in this movement of, you know, folks of color have always been outside,

[01:06:33] but we're seeing sort of folks being more like communicative, sharing about it, the sort

[01:06:38] of advance of social media, all of that.

[01:06:39] But there's a lot of racism and things associated with this space not being for us.

[01:06:48] And so all of that stuff has gone through my mind as I've learned, you know, the history

[01:06:51] you're taught in school, the actual history of like our country and all of that.

[01:06:56] And so I have much more of an awareness of the language as I'm explaining it to you now.

[01:07:03] But then I was like, outdoors is scary, right?

[01:07:06] There's a fear and I'm articulating it now.

[01:07:09] But then I was like, the feeling was there, right?

[01:07:11] But it wasn't.

[01:07:12] And, you know, now like explaining it and just to people, then it's like, oh, you're going

[01:07:18] to Montana to ride your bike and camp in the woods and there are bears.

[01:07:21] Like, what are you doing?

[01:07:22] Right.

[01:07:22] I remember thinking like, I'm with my friend.

[01:07:26] I trust her.

[01:07:27] I am safe with her.

[01:07:28] Am I safe out here with her?

[01:07:29] Right.

[01:07:30] Like that sort of thing, too.

[01:07:31] Like there's this other element of safety separate and apart from us being together of me just

[01:07:37] being a black person in these days.

[01:07:38] And there were moments on that trip where I didn't fear for my life, but there are moments

[01:07:42] where white people said weird, weird, because I was a black person outside on my bike doing

[01:07:48] this thing they hadn't seen.

[01:07:49] Right.

[01:07:49] So that still happens.

[01:07:51] And so I think there was a moment in that trip where I was like, what does safety look

[01:07:57] like for me separate and apart from relationship with my friend?

[01:08:00] Who cares about me?

[01:08:00] And, you know, we have this rapport, but what does it look like for me?

[01:08:04] And then how am I equipped to handle that?

[01:08:07] And what can I not control in that space too?

[01:08:09] Because people are going to do what they want to do.

[01:08:11] Right.

[01:08:12] So I think I was just for the first time peeling back those layers, like the reality of that.

[01:08:18] I am now someone who feels much more equipped to be outside.

[01:08:23] I look at the outdoors differently and there's still a small part of me that is like, has

[01:08:29] that awareness of like my safety net in the outdoors is something I need to constantly be

[01:08:35] aware of because of society, because of the history of this country, the racism of this

[01:08:40] country, the way that laws, national parks, all of that.

[01:08:45] And not just national parks, but safe parks.

[01:08:46] You know, there's always, and I live in Georgia, right?

[01:08:50] It's like Atlanta is a beacon in a big state full of people who are okay with Black people

[01:08:55] not going outside.

[01:08:56] You know what I'm saying?

[01:08:56] And so that's something that I, and most, most folks of color, I think, you know, are, have

[01:09:03] to stay aware of.

[01:09:05] And, you know, we're still fighting to, there's a lot of folks working this movement around.

[01:09:10] We've been outside.

[01:09:11] We will keep going outside.

[01:09:13] You know, indigenous folks were the first peoples outside, like in this country.

[01:09:17] Right.

[01:09:17] And so all of that is still something that is still being discussed in a way that is,

[01:09:24] you know, we're still, you know, the, the needles moving slowly on that, right.

[01:09:28] Around making these, these spaces for, for everyone truly.

[01:09:33] So yeah, a lot of just like, I think feelings, layers, I'm beginning to understand like what

[01:09:38] that means for me and maybe is something that kept me from being outside in that way.

[01:09:42] Like I grew up playing sports, right.

[01:09:44] So I was in nature, right.

[01:09:45] But I think a small part of me not going outside in that way until I was sort of with my friend,

[01:09:54] Sarah, um, and with, you know, bikepacking was just that, that fear and that awareness.

[01:09:59] Um, I mentioned camping before my former partner is white.

[01:10:03] Like she brought me outside with regularity to camp in the woods, right.

[01:10:07] That's just something I wasn't kind of doing on my own.

[01:10:09] Yeah.

[01:10:10] And here I am, you know, years later, but yeah, there, there's just that awareness is really

[01:10:15] deep.

[01:10:15] And something you just, you can't just release, I think.

[01:10:19] And living where we live, unfortunately.

[01:10:22] So yeah.

[01:10:23] Yeah.

[01:10:24] I giggling to myself a little bit because of this whole, like, would you rather end up

[01:10:29] in the woods with a bear or a man?

[01:10:31] The question that's been circulating on the internet, like you were literally in the woods

[01:10:36] with a bear, which is terrifying.

[01:10:38] But.

[01:10:39] Yeah.

[01:10:40] Yeah.

[01:10:40] Well, my friend, my friend, Sam was like, Oh, the, the animals don't scare me.

[01:10:45] It's the people.

[01:10:46] Yeah.

[01:10:46] And I'm like, that is real.

[01:10:48] 100%.

[01:10:48] You don't know what you're going to find in the back woods.

[01:10:50] Yeah.

[01:10:50] Okay.

[01:10:51] That's real.

[01:10:51] Yeah.

[01:10:52] Yeah.

[01:10:52] I mean, sorry.

[01:10:53] No, no, no, no.

[01:10:54] I mean, I feel that just from my experience as a woman and being a white woman, like there's

[01:11:00] limited layers to that and totally, you know, extra layers for you as a black woman.

[01:11:05] And you mentioned earlier too, just being short.

[01:11:08] Like that's, I mean, that's another.

[01:11:11] Yeah.

[01:11:12] Everyone is telling me they're teenagers taller than me.

[01:11:14] I remember getting like followed once in DC on the train and my friend, like joking

[01:11:21] that my, like my face in repose is like a smile.

[01:11:24] Like I don't have resting bitch face.

[01:11:25] So I'm like super approachable.

[01:11:28] And I was just like, yeah, I smile at strangers because I'm friendly, but like everyone is

[01:11:34] following me.

[01:11:34] So it's like, this man is following me and I'm just like, is this really happening?

[01:11:37] Then I was like, oh, this is happening.

[01:11:38] And I was later like, I couldn't even like have like an angry face to be like, to be like

[01:11:44] scary or like, and then it was just like, you know, and I, I, everything is fine.

[01:11:49] But I remember, I think I am someone who people tower over me.

[01:11:53] That's just, you know, my nieces and nephews, you know?

[01:11:56] Yeah.

[01:11:57] Having that awareness that I'm like black woman and short, it's like another layer

[01:12:01] of that.

[01:12:02] Um, but it's just, you know, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, and I've, I've had that feeling I've

[01:12:08] every once in a while I'll share like kind of offhand, a comment related to that with

[01:12:12] my husband.

[01:12:12] And it makes me so angry how he's just like, what really?

[01:12:16] I've never thought about that.

[01:12:17] And I'm just like, it's so frustrating that you've never had to think about that.

[01:12:22] And yeah, it's, it's wild.

[01:12:26] And that brings me to another quote from the same piece.

[01:12:28] It was, this was, I, I love this piece.

[01:12:30] It was so beautifully written.

[01:12:31] Um, and I appreciate your willingness to dig into this with me.

[01:12:35] Your other quote from that, which followed up on that thought was my anger and my fear

[01:12:41] brought me back to a question.

[01:12:43] I'm always asking what role do I play in shifting the narrative and how others see black folks

[01:12:49] outdoors?

[01:12:50] And I love this for a couple of reasons.

[01:12:52] One is just the fact that you stepped back to ask yourself that question was amazing.

[01:12:58] So I'm curious, firstly, how you viewed your role at that time.

[01:13:01] And if you've, if your own perception on your role has evolved since then, and then I want

[01:13:07] to follow that up and maybe answer it in whatever order you want to, but I feel like this is the

[01:13:11] kind of question we should all be asking ourselves, like just at a fundamental level, what role do

[01:13:16] I play in this?

[01:13:17] And I think it's so interesting how you describe that as a question that you regularly ask yourself.

[01:13:23] And I'd love to hear how you came to kind of build that in as a habitual question to ask

[01:13:28] yourself.

[01:13:28] Cause that's, I feel like it's something that I want to do more often.

[01:13:31] And I think it's something that would be like, it would behoove us all to do more often.

[01:13:35] So I'll, I'll leave, that was a really long question for you.

[01:13:38] Start wherever you want.

[01:13:40] Yeah.

[01:13:41] So, you know, the hindsight, quite a big question to ask oneself, which was like not, I'm like,

[01:13:46] wow, definitely.

[01:13:48] What?

[01:13:49] I'm like trying to save the world.

[01:13:50] What?

[01:13:51] Like, no.

[01:13:53] So I, it's kind of interesting that I would put that on myself, right?

[01:13:58] Like, and now as someone who's been kind of working in this space for a few years, it's

[01:14:01] like, okay, it makes sense to ask myself that now, but in that early stage of like, yeah,

[01:14:06] just an interesting reflection point for me again.

[01:14:08] But I think, you know, I've, I've learned a lot since that trip.

[01:14:13] One of the, one of the things I've come to understand and sort of like shifting this narrative

[01:14:17] is community is a healer.

[01:14:19] Community is a resource.

[01:14:21] Community is something that we all need to be a part of, to fall back on, to provide support.

[01:14:26] We saw the way, you know, the government responded to COVID and how that exposed structural racism

[01:14:31] and mutual aid and community was the thing that got people through in a lot of ways.

[01:14:38] And so asking myself that question, it's like, okay, how can I surround myself with people

[01:14:44] who have a similar interest, who want to shift this narrative?

[01:14:48] How can I tell my own stories to then shift someone else's view of how Black people are

[01:14:56] recreating?

[01:14:57] I think the Black Foxes are a great example of kind of taking back those narratives and

[01:15:01] shaping, being in control of like how we recreate, how stories are told about how we recreate.

[01:15:08] And again, this awareness of how our country came to be and what was happening before,

[01:15:15] you know, land, land was stolen.

[01:15:17] Right.

[01:15:17] And so I think a lot of that is around education, having these conversations, educating folks,

[01:15:23] educating myself.

[01:15:23] I think the education goes both ways and we've all had maybe some sort of U.S.

[01:15:28] history, which is not really U.S.

[01:15:31] history.

[01:15:32] And so taking that time to read more about Indigenous community, Indigenous practices,

[01:15:39] what actually happened, right?

[01:15:41] And like digging in, now we have the internet, right?

[01:15:43] I think, you know, in school it was not, you know, I remember when AOL came out and that

[01:15:47] was a big deal, but like just doing our own research around like finding book, reading books

[01:15:52] who are authored by folks of color, storytellers, all of that.

[01:15:56] So doing some of that education and then sort of just connecting, not just, but connecting

[01:16:00] with folks who are working to build community, who are working to be in the outdoors with

[01:16:08] other folks of color, who are working with land management organizations, working with

[01:16:12] national parks, working with state parks to shift some of these old laws, to have conversations

[01:16:18] around like laws that were created years ago that like don't, don't matter anymore, right?

[01:16:23] Or like aren't relevant for present day.

[01:16:26] And it, I think it is sort of, there's all of these different ways that we can work on

[01:16:32] how folks of color are seen in nature, in the outdoors.

[01:16:36] I was listening to a speech, I think it was a conversation a few, a few weeks ago.

[01:16:41] And, um, this guy was one of the, one of the four black men who like hyped Denali or something.

[01:16:46] And he was like, I, I want to stop being the first, being the first in a thing.

[01:16:50] It's like, yes, that is great.

[01:16:52] But it's like, we're past 2000 and there's still all of these first and asking us why,

[01:16:56] what systems exist where it takes so long for like one of us to slip through.

[01:17:02] I mean, Aisha, like she's the first.

[01:17:04] Yes.

[01:17:05] She was a preschool music teacher and was just like, I want to do this thing.

[01:17:09] And she put her mind in and she did it.

[01:17:10] She's the most determined person I've ever met, right?

[01:17:13] Very stubborn, determined.

[01:17:14] It's great.

[01:17:15] And it's just like, you know, she's the first, but it's like, I don't want there to, that to

[01:17:20] always be the story for us, right?

[01:17:23] Asking yourself as a white person, asking myself, what are these systems that are here

[01:17:28] that are in place that make it so hard for us to get to this?

[01:17:31] And now some of that, and that's not just like law, law, some of that's generational

[01:17:36] wealth, I moved to national wealth because of the way, you know, after the, like, you

[01:17:40] know, the history of like redlining, all of the stuff that's happening, like in our

[01:17:44] country again, that made it impossible for folks of color to do these things or to be,

[01:17:51] even you think about like reparations and land back and all of that.

[01:17:53] It's like things happened.

[01:17:54] And now like folks are fighting to, to get things that were rightfully theirs.

[01:17:59] But you ask like a wealthy white person who owns land, it's like, no, this is nice.

[01:18:03] I'm not going to give this back to you or whatever, you know?

[01:18:05] And so I think just asking those questions of like, why is it this way?

[01:18:09] Why are there less black people in academia?

[01:18:11] Why are there less black people, special road cyclists?

[01:18:15] So asking those tough questions, having those conversations, continue to educate.

[01:18:18] And then, as I said, surrounding with community, you know, I think my favorite parts about

[01:18:23] being black is we can always find joy and comic relief and, and stuff.

[01:18:29] And so I think for me, like being community with other black folks, other folks of color

[01:18:32] is just like having an opportunity to experience the outdoors in a safe space, have a good time,

[01:18:39] you know, continue to be outside and, and, you know, have a sense of freedom within community.

[01:18:45] Right.

[01:18:45] I think that it may not be in my lifetime where things change and I'm okay, I'm okay with that,

[01:18:51] but I do think that continuing to be in conversation, having hard conversations,

[01:18:59] mobilizing communities, local government, national government to really work towards

[01:19:05] a society that looks different than what we have and maybe different than what we see now.

[01:19:09] Right.

[01:19:10] Like I find a lot of dreaming happens in communities of color, like a vision for a world that looks

[01:19:15] different than we're in now, like being able to really like things in motion to make those

[01:19:20] dreams come to life.

[01:19:21] And like, that's going to take a long time, but I have to feel hopeful because that's

[01:19:25] how I can get through my day to day.

[01:19:27] But just recognizing that, like having more of these conversations, being able to be in

[01:19:32] the right spaces, asking hard questions.

[01:19:35] And then, you know, I think because of the society we live in, we need white people to

[01:19:42] support these movements.

[01:19:44] Yes.

[01:19:44] Right.

[01:19:44] Because white people have power.

[01:19:46] White is right.

[01:19:46] That's the sort of, that's where we are.

[01:19:48] Right.

[01:19:48] And so recognizing that that's the thing.

[01:19:50] So being able to like find those good wheels for people who can help move the needle.

[01:19:55] Right.

[01:19:55] Like that's really key.

[01:19:56] Yeah.

[01:19:57] You know, I think, I think about the work that Aisha does and the relationship she's

[01:20:01] been able to build.

[01:20:02] And a lot of that has been her, but relationships with people who are white, who can advocate

[01:20:07] for her.

[01:20:08] Right.

[01:20:08] Think about Kate, who's at Zwift.

[01:20:10] She's advocated for the programs that we run and that has made a huge difference in

[01:20:13] what we've been able to do to build the pipeline of women of color cyclists into road racing.

[01:20:20] Right.

[01:20:20] That's huge.

[01:20:21] And so it's a lot of that too.

[01:20:23] Like having that white person in a room speak about a thing.

[01:20:27] Right.

[01:20:27] And we have to have white people help us move the needle.

[01:20:30] Right.

[01:20:30] So.

[01:20:30] Yeah.

[01:20:31] So part of that.

[01:20:32] I hope that makes sense.

[01:20:33] Oh, it makes so much sense.

[01:20:33] Yeah.

[01:20:34] It's like, you know, it's, there's so many pieces there.

[01:20:36] But yeah.

[01:20:37] And it's, I think.

[01:20:38] Yeah.

[01:20:38] It can feel overwhelming as one person to start to like unpack this.

[01:20:44] Right.

[01:20:44] Cause it's like, okay, well, this is systemic and I'm one person, but your, your initial

[01:20:51] point of, you know, community being that key component, right.

[01:20:55] It's, it's never on one person, but a community doesn't exist unless you have individuals who

[01:21:03] are willing to ask themselves that question.

[01:21:05] What role do I play?

[01:21:07] And to find, as you said, other people who shared, who are similarly exploring, who have,

[01:21:14] you know, similar will and vision and dreams to get in there and actually come together

[01:21:23] and organize in a way to make collective action.

[01:21:28] And as you said, I'm even thinking of it right now, as you're speaking, if I think about what

[01:21:32] role I play, then I think about, okay, what are the areas where I do have some power?

[01:21:37] I do have some influence and it's hard to think of that as power, but it is right.

[01:21:42] Influence is power.

[01:21:43] And if I, if I have even a little bit of that, then why do I have that is an interesting

[01:21:50] question and important question to ask.

[01:21:52] And then what can I do with that?

[01:21:55] Because those two things are part of what answer that question of what role do I play?

[01:22:00] And it's not just what role do you actually play in the moment, but what role do you want

[01:22:05] to play?

[01:22:06] And then what do you need to do to get from here to there?

[01:22:10] Yeah.

[01:22:10] I just thank you for bringing that question up in that article.

[01:22:15] Yeah.

[01:22:15] And I, yeah, a lot of people are okay with the status quo.

[01:22:20] Too many people, you know?

[01:22:22] And I think we need more disruptors.

[01:22:26] That's just, we need more disruptors.

[01:22:28] And yeah, I, sometimes it's hard to be a disruptor because it's sometimes tiring to

[01:22:34] be like the person of color advocating for people of color.

[01:22:36] Right.

[01:22:37] And so it can get exhausting.

[01:22:39] I think like you're saying, like asking yourself that question is really important because

[01:22:44] influence is power.

[01:22:45] Um, and it, it makes a difference.

[01:22:47] Um, and I think you, yeah, there's a lot of people who are just like, oh, status quo is

[01:22:51] cool for me because you're not affected by these other things.

[01:22:55] Right.

[01:22:55] Like Mitch and like even your husband being like, oh, I haven't thought about that.

[01:22:58] Like that's a real thing.

[01:22:59] And like, so nice for you.

[01:23:00] There's layers to that privilege.

[01:23:02] Right.

[01:23:02] With like other, you know, people within other identities.

[01:23:07] I'm still asking that question.

[01:23:09] Um, and also giving myself grace to like take a break, you know, because I get tired, but

[01:23:14] I do think a lot of us spend time thinking about like life's purpose and all of that.

[01:23:18] And those petty questions.

[01:23:20] Right.

[01:23:20] I'm always wondering like what we all have a role to play in the ecosystem.

[01:23:25] What does that look like?

[01:23:25] Right.

[01:23:26] It doesn't need to be necessarily like purpose, but you have a role to play.

[01:23:29] Right.

[01:23:29] And so just really being able to dig into that, I think, um, gives me direction, um, gives

[01:23:34] me like something, a grounding space, which feels really important in this time, especially

[01:23:40] when there's so much happening or there's so much stuff happening in the world.

[01:23:44] It's a challenging question to ask, especially as one person.

[01:23:49] But, you know, I, I want to kind of bring this back around again to that community piece

[01:23:54] because we are not alone in this.

[01:23:56] And, you know, as you said, it's, it isn't, it shouldn't be up to black people to carry

[01:24:02] this, you know, on their own.

[01:24:05] And I mean, because it's a double whammy, right?

[01:24:08] Like you're, you're having to deal with all of the fallout and effects of these oppressive

[01:24:14] systems on top of trying to change those oppressive systems.

[01:24:17] Whereas people who are benefiting from those oppressive systems who have more power and

[01:24:22] influence could, you know, also be able to carry, share, share that load and question

[01:24:29] the role that they're playing and use that role to start changing those systems for the

[01:24:34] better.

[01:24:34] And I just, I want to bring it back to community because I want to just remind people that,

[01:24:39] you know, as daunting as it can feel at times, like you said, there's so much going on in the

[01:24:44] world right now and it can feel super overwhelming at times.

[01:24:47] You do have power as an individual because you have power to become part of a community

[01:24:52] or to build a community.

[01:24:54] And everyone has that power.

[01:24:56] I think I don't consider myself a powerful person, but even I have that power.

[01:25:02] Even I have that off to offer.

[01:25:04] And I think it's worth remembering that.

[01:25:07] And yeah, to your point, it's like, we need those good wheels out there to, to come together.

[01:25:13] And that's where, that's where we can start to really feel our power.

[01:25:19] I think, I don't know.

[01:25:20] Does that, does that make sense?

[01:25:22] Right.

[01:25:23] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:25:24] Absolutely.

[01:25:25] Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk today.

[01:25:28] I know this is a longer one than, than a longer format than usual, but, um, I love having the

[01:25:34] space and the time to go deeper on some of these questions.

[01:25:37] And I just really appreciate how reflective and thoughtful you are in, in everything that

[01:25:43] you do.

[01:25:44] And you've been such a great wheel for so many people.

[01:25:47] And thank you for that.

[01:25:48] And thank you for being on the show today.

[01:25:50] Thank you.

[01:25:51] I'm honored to be asked.

[01:25:53] And so I was like, I don't have anything to say, but then we are talking and I'm like,

[01:25:57] okay, I do.

[01:25:58] I'm a, um, a Leo sun, Leo rising Libra moon.

[01:26:02] So I'm always like, oh, let me talk about myself.

[01:26:05] Uh, but I value being in conversation about this and some of these topics and to reflect

[01:26:10] back on my time in this space.

[01:26:12] You know, I sometimes joke, like I didn't start living my life until 2018 because I've

[01:26:17] changed so much.

[01:26:18] And it's been a really interesting, powerful learning journey for me.

[01:26:23] And it's exciting to, to still be on it.

[01:26:26] And I hope that, um, I like continues to be full of things like this, um, that allow

[01:26:31] me to reflect and, and be in conversation and to learn and grow and to also share great, um,

[01:26:37] what I've learned in my own experiences.

[01:26:38] So I'm grateful for that.

[01:26:40] Well, thank you for saying that.

[01:26:41] And thank you for sharing all of your wisdom and experience, because I mean, even gosh,

[01:26:46] even just the questions that you were running through about founding and scaling, you know,

[01:26:51] RAR, ADL, ATL.

[01:26:52] I mean, it's just, yeah, it's incredible.

[01:26:55] And I think folks are going to get a lot out of this conversation.

[01:26:57] So thank you, Devin.

[01:26:59] Thank you.

[01:26:59] Thank you.

[01:27:01] Thank you.

[01:27:01] I've always admired Devin and really enjoyed the research I got to do for our interview.

[01:27:05] I was so intrigued by her piece for the adventure cycling association, even though it was an

[01:27:10] older one in particular, because it demonstrated such a profound awareness and not just in the

[01:27:16] sense of being internally aware.

[01:27:18] I was really struck by her impulse to challenge herself, to learn more from the emotions that

[01:27:24] arose for her in that moment of fear.

[01:27:26] And especially to wonder what role do I play in this?

[01:27:30] One of the things I learned as an athlete and continue to keep top of mind is to direct

[01:27:34] my energy toward things in my control and to work on letting go of the things beyond my control.

[01:27:40] It's so hard to witness and feel helpless about the dark and difficult things in the world.

[01:27:46] And it's so important to remember what is within our control.

[01:27:51] That question, what role do I play, gets at the heart of this.

[01:27:56] What is within my control or influence to contribute?

[01:28:00] And how am I directing my energy and contributions?

[01:28:03] How are those actions and contributions nourishing the good that we want to see?

[01:28:09] We each have something to offer.

[01:28:11] Devin's insight is essential.

[01:28:13] Don't stop at the surface fear, the surface anger.

[01:28:17] Seek to learn something by digging deeper.

[01:28:21] Not just for your own self-understanding, but also for the benefit of the relationships,

[01:28:26] communities, and cultures to which you contribute.

[01:28:30] Thank you for joining us for today's episode.

[01:28:32] This is an abridged version of the full interview.

[01:28:36] To get full-length and extended versions of each episode, sign up for a membership on Ko-Fi.

[01:28:42] Memberships start as low as $3 a month.

[01:28:44] Check out all the perks at ko-fi.com slash beagoodwheel.

[01:28:48] That's ko-fi.com slash beagoodwheel to sign up.

[01:28:55] The Be A Good Wheel podcast is produced by our wizard behind the curtain, Maxine Filivong.

[01:29:00] If you loved today's episode, don't forget to rate us five stars.

[01:29:04] Until next time, thanks for listening and thanks for being a good wheel.